"Button Bloat"

[LeonKeyh]

There was a way to like...rotate combo action abilities into the same button...hmmm....if only...

*stares with disappointment at his PvP profile since it is a mechanic already in game but they just don't use it*

Ask healers how much fun using 1 button for DPS is. That's ignoring that it won't really work for SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN, and WAR because of branching combos. You know, some of the classes that have the most bloat.

There are so many other changes that can be made to fix button bloat that improve gameplay.

[rewd]

Ask healers how much fun using 1 button for DPS is. That's ignoring that it won't really work for SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN, and WAR because of branching combos. You know, some of the classes that have the most bloat.

There are so many other changes that can be made to fix button bloat that improve gameplay.

You could consolidate a 1-2-3 combo and keep things like Armor Crush on a separate button that resets the basic combo.

The healer equivalence doesn't make much sense. One would assume that DPS have more than a 1-2-3 combo and consolidating combos would clear the way for more buttons and mechanic anyway.

[VentVanitas]

PvP combos will just straight up not work on MNK unless you wanted to somehow lobotomize it even further. To reduce its combos to 3 buttons would mean removing the agency of some of its skills like Twin Snakes/Demolish, ruining the entire point of Form Shift, and just shooting Perfect Balance right in the kneecaps.

[rewd]

PvP combos will just straight up not work on MNK unless you wanted to somehow lobotomize it even further. To reduce its combos to 3 buttons would mean removing the agency of some of its skills like Twin Snakes/Demolish, ruining the entire point of Form Shift, and just shooting Perfect Balance right in the kneecaps.

If you are talking to me, I never mentioned MNK nor do I view its peculiar combo system the same as a basic 1-2-3. What I am saying is that Armor Crush or Storm's Eye wouldn't pose any problem if you were to consolidate combos.

[Silver-Strider]

If you are talking to me, I never mentioned MNK nor do I view its peculiar combo system the same as a basic 1-2-3. What I am saying is that Armor Crush or Storm's Eye wouldn't pose any problem if you were to consolidate combos.

They could just reuse the old animations of removed skills. Tanks used to have a DPS rotation and an Aggro rotation so they could compress the 1-2 branch off actions into a 2nd combo and make the rotation 2 buttons instead of 3-4 buttons. It still cuts button bloat either way

[Shurrikhan]

Ask healers how much fun using 1 button for DPS is.

Let's not conflate issues.

Would WHM dps be 3x more fun if you had Glare for 270 potency, Glare II for 310, and Glare III for 350 that you must rotate between, locked to their combo?

They'll all have the same animation, to be clear, since you allege the issue is the number of buttons being pressed, not the scarcity of actions.

Oh, and of course, we may need to drop two buttons elsewhere, so go ahead and pick what you want to lose so you can go from Glare to Glare-Combo.

That's ignoring that it won't really work for SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN, and WAR because of branching combos. You know, some of the classes that have the most bloat.

There are so many other changes that can be made to fix button bloat that improve gameplay.

MNK is the only outlier there. Branching combos haven't been an issue for combo consolidation, ever. We've had consolidated combos on branching actions since Stormblood.

NIN gets a button each for Hakke, Throwing Daggers, Armor Crush, and Aeolian Edge, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

DRG gets a button each for Coerthan Tempest, Piercing Talon, TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT, and TT-Db-CT-WT-F&C, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

WAR gets a button each for Mythril Tempest, Tomahawk, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path. And then it'd have its GCD gauge-spenders, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

SAM gets a button each for Oka, Mangetsu, Enpi, Yukikaze, Kasha, and Gekko. And then it'd have its usual auxiliary GCDs, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

It is neither a new nor complex idea.

[Ransu]

Let's not conflate issues.

Would WHM dps be 3x more fun if you had Glare for 270 potency, Glare II for 310, and Glare III for 350 that you must rotate between, locked to their combo?

They'll all have the same animation, to be clear, since you allege the issue is the number of buttons being pressed, not the scarcity of actions.

Oh, and of course, we may need to drop two buttons elsewhere, so go ahead and pick what you want to lose so you can go from Glare to Glare-Combo.


MNK is the only outlier there. Branching combos haven't been an issue for combo consolidation, ever. We've had consolidated combos on branching actions since Stormblood.

NIN gets a button each for Hakke, Throwing Daggers, Armor Crush, and Aeolian Edge, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

DRG gets a button each for Coerthan Tempest, Piercing Talon, TT-VT-FT-F&C-WT, and TT-Db-CT-WT-F&C, spending as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

WAR gets a button each for Mythril Tempest, Tomahawk, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path. And then it'd have its GCD gauge-spenders, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

SAM gets a button each for Oka, Mangetsu, Enpi, Yukikaze, Kasha, and Gekko. And then it'd have its usual auxiliary GCDs, just as before. Ultimately, it'd spend as many GCD buttons as it has available GCD choices.

It is neither a new nor complex idea.

If I wanted simple 1,2,3 mash fests I'd play tank.

[Ramura_Sono]

I don't care Kaiten is gone either. However the choice to remove it is poor.

If the issue was button bloat (supposedly incorrectly translated):
Then consolidating the Single Target and AOE skills that share a cooldown would have been a far better choice. Simply applying the potency of the single target equivalent to the first target of the AOE version would have freed up more buttons

If the issue was "action bloat":
Then reducing the frequency of Shinten/Kyuten uses would have been the correct action. Increasing it's Kenki cost and potency would have severely reduced action bloat far more than the removal of Kaiten ever could.

[Colt47]

People talking about samurai change and button bloat.

Me looking at dragoon buttons with multiple versions of "Jump On this enemy and skewer it with a spear", with a triple move aoe that actually has four stages to it and they had to stick the fourth stage onto the first stage, with the combo attack for single target being 5 stages with the 5th stage also being the first stage of the combo overlapping it...

[Aco505]

People talking about samurai change and button bloat.

Me looking at dragoon buttons with multiple versions of "Jump On this enemy and skewer it with a spear", with a triple move aoe that actually has four stages to it and they had to stick the fourth stage onto the first stage, with the combo attack for single target being 5 stages with the 5th stage also being the first stage of the combo overlapping it...

DRG has no button bloat at all. Some think there's a bit of it but that's it: all oGCDs in the DRG's kit are used in every single scenario. The only difference between DRG ST and AoE is changing your Chaotic Spring/Heavens' Thrust weaponskill combo to the Coerthan Torment one. Draconian Fury just substitutes Doom Spike. That's three buttons. Compare it to RPR, for example, who has at least 6 buttons dedicated exclusively to AoE and you see the difference.

DRG could still consolidate specific abilities (Lance Charge and Dragon Sight, for instance), but it's more because of these talks about button bloat and because Dragon Sight is just a "meh" button now with the loss of the tether that doesn't really offer anything unique at this point. Until then, there was never talk about the job being so bloated it needed pruning, because it doesn't.

Jobs that are button bloated are those that have many AoE duplicates of their ST attacks, or jobs with a lot of defensive, healing or utility tools. DRG is neither of those.