"Button Bloat"

[Diadem]

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

Tell me you're bad at SAM and maths without telling me you're bad at SAM and maths. An other case of why should I understand when I could just follow.

[Quyn]

Forte said that SAM is less viable in Crit heavy comps. This is because of the anti-synergy their big hitting abilities now have with crit-based raid buffs like Chain Stratagem, Battle Litany, and Devilment. Not that SAM was unviable in general. It’s all about party and raid buff composition. This only affects groups that chase high parses, so it won’t affect the more midcore or casual raiders; which they also acknowledged. But it’s still worth acknowledging all the same since this issue is already present in other jobs (WAR and it’s anti-synergy with BRD’s Battle Voice).

EDIT: arbitrary daily post limit hit—



It’s not feelycrafting to say that jobs that aren’t more in synergy with one another are a less viable alternative to jobs that do synergize. It’s purely fact. The same logic applied to SB BRD when it came to wanting SCH over the other two healers because of their synergy with Chain Strategem. It was less viable for the BRD to have WHM/AST compared to WHM/SCH or AST/SCH because they lost an important Crit buff to them. None of the comps were unviable to a BRD, but a non-SCH one had inherently less synergy than one with a SCH, and resulted in a damage loss.

If you care about bleeding edge parsing and leaderboards, this is important. If you don’t, then it isn’t. But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a thing to note.

The statement was unviable, not, less- viable. thats a massive difference in statements with different implications.
I already agreed that its obviously worse, by a small margin.

[ForteNightshade]

The statement was unviable, not, less- viable. thats a massive difference in statements with different implications.
I already agreed that its obviously worse, by a small margin.

You're ignoring where I mentioned Warrior and Samurai being borderline unviable, together, in a crit heavy comp. To spell it out even further. A comp including the following jobs: WAR/SCH/SAM/DRG/BRD(or DNC) would border on unviability. Not that it couldn't be done but the overall loss of raid DPS simply wouldn't be worthwhile.

[ForteNightshade]

A 3 % DPS difference is borderline unviable? give me a break man.
Sure,yes, its counter- logical that another class now benefits less from crit buffs.

That... isn't what I said whatsoever. What I said bordered on being unviable is Warrior and Samurai specifically in a Crit heavy comp due to their lack of synergy. It's bad enough with just Warrior but ultimately won't impact the wider majority, especially with them being a tank whose DPS is naturally much longer. Pairing them together with Samurai in a comp running Scholar, Dragoon and Bard/Dancer, will see a pretty sizable DPS loss. Will it matter to the more midcore or casual groups. Not at all since gear is the all important equalizer. However, it is impactful in early prog and ensures any group aiming to parse won't allow either job.

[CelestiCer]

Action Bloat implies there's a problem that we require to cast to many skills, and honestly? the Action Bloat we have currently with Samurai isn't the issue, it's the REASON so many SAM's play SAM. We love it! we just don't label it as Action Bloat we call it... " Weaving "

Button Bloat implies there's an issue with to many skills to fit on your hotbar.
- We can set our hot bars to fit everything
- We aren't even the class with the most Button Bloat
- There are numerous ways to tackle this then removing our Kaiten

I can't even recall anyone complaining about Samurai Pre-6.1 update that made it so unbearably torturingly unplayable, warranting any changes we have now (torturingly is that a word right?). The Nr1 complaint I ever heard... of Samurai? is this -> " Why are all the skills in Japanese? It's confusing "...

While I can indulge in brainstorming for solutions as much as the next person and heck I have in the form of my own suggestions on my own Feedback post... Unless I can see what Skills we are supposed to make room for? I don't see any Button Bloat issues we're trying to solve.

We would be just combining skills for Quality of Life changes at best
PS: I am not trying to flame any ideas we bring, I am trying to reason in my lil noggin with the changes we received that made absolutely no sense to me...

[Faulko]

I do understand that. The calculations ive seen on balance stated that the difference here is about 3% dps in worst case scenario- heavy crit comps.
Is this information been mathed out again and outdated , or is everyone just making big statements based on their feelings ?

First off, balance isn’t the be all end all of opinions or knowledge about this game. It’s not objective fact just because it shows up on balance.
Second, I think a lot of the frustration in theses changes can’t be justified with math. You can sit here all day telling people worried about these changes that “it’s only 3% guys”, but that won’t change the visceral reaction people have to seeing their Midares hit for 50-60k one day, and then barely able to break 20-25k the next. Yes, the balance math MAY be right, but all the math in the world won’t make seeing your Midare hit that low any less frustrating. Seeing a fucking SHINTEN crit more than a Midare crit is a special kind of pain to endure.
The kaiten removal was just an extra kick to the nuts, sure maybe it’s bloat, but there are way more appropriate places to trim bloat.

I’m willing to bet that most samurai against these changes could be compromised with if Midare and ogi got some of their potency back, and no amount of discord math can quell the confusion of losing more than 50% of the damage on your jobs STAPLE ABILITY.

MIDARE SHOULD NEVER, EVER, EVER, HIT LESS THAN A SHINTEN. FULL STOP.

[CelestiCer]

I wouldn't mind merging skills, changing them to be multi-functional. For Samurai various AoE versions with shared Cooldowns or Resources, merged to be multifunction for either say SingleTarget or AoE would create depth and make space for more new skills. If it's just merging to dumb down the Jobs we have purely for the sake of oversimplification and oversimplification alone? yeah... that's... yeah no...

[Ceridwen]

I wouldn't mind merging skills, changing them to be multi-functional. For Samurai various AoE versions with shared Cooldowns or Resources, merged to be multifunction for either say SingleTarget or AoE would create depth and make space for more new skills. If it's just merging to dumb down the Jobs we have purely for the sake of oversimplification and oversimplification alone? yeah... that's... yeah no...

I wouldn't mind this at all, on several classes, like what they did with Gnashing Fang. If there's no choice involved (like the red mage melee combo) then it might as well be on one key (a bit like it is when you play as Alisaie) I don't think skill should require me to be a pianist, basically. I'd like fewer buttons, more choice, personally. But I also want to keep class flourish, and Kaiten was absolutely that - and pretty much the best. I loved that move.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

When we talk about button bloat, I agree with the fact that some class should have more "Replacing button".

I'll show an exemple with Astrologian :

Minor Arcana and Crown Play have literally no reason to coexist. You only draw a King or a Queen and use it for damage or heal, this has absolutely no side effect at all.

Undraw should be deleted, there is no reason to just undraw your cards and wait another 30 second before you can draw again and sacrifice a 6% damage buff on one of your mate (Simply put, this action is not even in my hotbar). Redraw is actually doing the same thing without any consequence, it's just the better option anyway.

The button bloat on every class can be reduced, even with ease for certain but more complicated for others (I say more complicated, but that doesn't mean it's really that hard, some classes can only reduce the button bloat slightly)

People have their reason to complain with the removal of Kaiten. Some agree, other disagree, it's always like that. I think that if Kaiten was removed AND Potency ajusted on Iaijutsu without adding Auto-crits in order to balance the loss of Kaiten, this change could have been "more welcomed" than now, but the problem will remain the same with Kenki now, it's just a spam ressource that you literally don't need to manage at all... Only two choice are emerging on this :

1) Bring back Kaiten, and find a way to work around

or

2) Going forward from now on, and rework the Kenki gauge with some ability.

[RHarris1349]

I think we’re all forgetting something about Samurai Job,

Kaeshi: Higanbana is useless and could have been removed instead of Hissatsu: Kaiten.