"Button Bloat"

[batman]

So, I'll preface this with I don't care that Kaiten is gone - I'll miss it as it felt nice, like removing the safety case before slamming the big red button, but you easily could've consolidated Kaeshi into Iaijutsu in the way Kaeshi: Namikiri follows Ogi Namikiri.

What I'm more concerned about is the flat, predictable curve of damage that Samurai now deals, the fact that in these "buffs" we've actually lost damage from 6.08 due to the severity of the Kaeshi: Namikiri, Midare, and Shoha nerfs as the buffs to basic attack combos doesn't truly balance that deficit out. It's also not fun how these changes are making the community react in the way that they see Samurai now as less viable.

Also, turning everything into a circle just doesn't feel as fun anymore, sure I'll hit more targets compared to if I wasn't trying to actively position myself to hit the most enemies with a conal cleave, but removing that thought process doesn't really achieve anything other than making the job less fun to play.

But yeah, honestly I'm actually really disappointed in the job changes for SAM this patch. I can't enjoy myself as much anymore because the job feels lesser now because of the changes, and the quality of life changes were really things that no-one actually asked for. People love to dump the blame on the "instanced dungeon only" crowd or "casuals" but yeah, it feels like you're reducing the risk/challenge the job provides, but also reducing the reward for good gameplay far further than it ever should be.

I don't feel like I'm actually doing good for putting any effort into my rotation, and honestly it's friends that keep me here playing, not the actual content itself.

But idk, I feel the team might be taking the design of the whole game in the wrong direction - Shadowbringers was that sweet spot and right now things just don't feel quite as fun or rewarding as they did.

[LeonKeyh]

There are plenty of changes that could have been made to Samurai to address button bloat:


Have Shoha upgrade to Shoha II with a high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Shinten and Kyuten into 1 ability with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Have Tsubame replace Iaijutsu after using Iaijutsu

Combine Guren and Senei into a single attack with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Gyoten and Yaten into an ability similar to Icarus/Thunderclap that just takes you to a target

Have Ogi Namakiri replace Ikishoten


but the idea that Kaiten was removed because of "button bloat" was a misunderstanding/mistranslation. It was removed due to _action bloat_. It was just another button you had to press before every Iaijutsu and was one of the most used abilities as a SAM (though, that just means that instead of pressing Kaiten 10 times, you'll press Shinten 8 more times. So.... I imagine a Kenki generation "balancing" is coming)

[RyuuZero]

There are plenty of changes that could have been made to Samurai to address button bloat:


Have Shoha upgrade to Shoha II with a high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Shinten and Kyuten into 1 ability with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Guren and Senei into a single attack with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Gyoten and Yaten into an ability similar to Icarus/Thunderclap that just takes you to a target

Have Ogi Namakiri replace Ikishoten

Stop!
Shoha is for Single Target, Shoha 2 is for AoE
Shinten is for Single Target, Kyuten is for AoE
Senei is for Single Target, Guren is for AoE
Gyoten is to Rush to the Enemy, Yaten is to attack while retreat
On Tsubamegaeshi, we agree

imagine you have an add next to you that explodes on hit, now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and lose dps until the add is taken care of or you just press your skills and wipe? there is a reason why we have skills for those 2 situations and not understanding this is what brought us here, the removal of Kaiten is wrong!

also here is a Macro that turns Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri:
/macroicon "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ogi Namikiri"

additional notes:
1. press this macro 3 times, 1st for Ikishoten, 2nd for Ogi Namikiri, 3rd for Kaeshi Namikiri. I call this Macro: Double Slice Buster
2. use Auto-translation for /macroicon, "Ikishoten" and "Ogi Namikiri" so the Game can read this Macro on all clients
3. did you noticed that Ikishoten has the same cool down as Senei and Guren? perfect to combo Senei into Ogi (for Single Target) or Guren into Ogi (for AoE) depending on the situation.

[HyoMinPark]

Stop!
Shoha is for Single Target, Shoha 2 is for AoE
Shinten is for Single Target, Kyuten is for AoE
Senei is for Single Target, Guren is for AoE

You don’t need single target and AOE variants of these abilities. Especially when Guren already did it right in SB: it was your second strongest ability, and could be used in both a single target scenario and an AOE scenario. Senei is redundant and needless bloat when Guren already did the same thing prior. And this single-target with AOE falloff isn’t a new concept. It’s still a thing on other jobs now.

imagine you have an add next to you that explodes on hit, now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and lose dps until the add is taken care of or you just press your skills and wipe? there is a reason why we have skills for those 2 situations and not understanding this is what brought us here, the removal of Kaiten is wrong!

See above. SB Guren already solved this problem: you could use it on single target for high potency, or against multiple enemies for a cleave. It didn’t need a single-target variant. It already got the job done.

also here is a Macro that turns Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri:
/macroicon "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ogi Namikiri"

additional notes:
1. press this macro 3 times, 1st for Ikishoten, 2nd for Ogi Namikiri, 3rd for Kaeshi Namikiri. I call this Macro: Double Slice Buster
2. use Auto-translation for /macroicon, "Ikishoten" and "Ogi Namikiri" so the Game can read this Macro on all clients
3. did you noticed that Ikishoten has the same cool down as Senei and Guren? perfect to combo Senei into Ogi (for Single Target) or Guren into Ogi (for AoE) depending on the situation.

Do not recommend combat macros without also addressing the issues they present within combat. Macros do not queue in this game, and you risk losing more damage in your attempt to consolidate, and from macro misfires. They are not and have never been recommended for general combat uses outside of a handful of oGCD utilities. Never for combo consolidation like what you are suggesting.

[CKNovel]

Stop!

Police of the useless buttons, open up.

When SAM only had Guren, Guren was used for single target and it wasn't a problem in SB.
Sen'ei was introduced and Guren was only used in multi targets. Guren became button bloat.

It's the cooldowns that share AoE and Single Target variant that are the problems.

Look at dragoon, there is not a single variant. Is anyone asking for a single target Nastrond? Anyone asking for a single target Star Diver? Anyone asking for a single target wyrm trust?
No, no one is asking any of that and dragoon is one of the best designed jobs.

If SQEX introduced those buttons as single target, DRG would be suddenly bloated and the AoE versions would be barely pressed.

I won't comment on that macro, everyone above explained perfectly the problems.

[LeonKeyh]

imagine you have an add next to you that explodes on hit, now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and lose dps until the add is taken care of or you just press your skills and wipe? there is a reason why we have skills for those 2 situations and not understanding this is what brought us here, the removal of Kaiten is wrong!

I prefer, instead of imagining, working within reality...

Imagine being able to move a little bit so you don't actually hit this imaginary add. Imagine all of the other jobs that have abilities the way I described the changes they could make to SAM and how they could easily handle this imaginary add. "Knowing when to hit the single target vs AE ability" isn't some major tactical knowledge as you're making it out to be and isn't something that is needed. 2 different versions of the same skill are not needed even within your imaginary scenario, they've done this with a ton of other skills already, this isn't a new idea:

PAL:
Confiteor combo

WAR:
Primal Rend

DRK:
Shadowbringer
Living Shadow

GNB:
Double Down

WHM:
Afflatus Misery

SGE:
Phlegma


MNK:
Elixir Field
Rising Phoenix
Celestial Revolution
Phantom Rush

DRG:
Wyrmwind Thrust
Stardiver
Geirskogul/ Nastrond
Dragonfire Dive

NIN:
Phantom Kamaitachi

SAM:
Ogi Namikiri
Kaeshi: Namikiri

RPR:
Communio
Harvest Moon/ Plentiful Harvest

BRD:
Blast Arrow
Apex Arrow

MCH:
Chainsaw
Ricochet

DNC:
Starfall Dance
Fan abilities

I think I'm running out of characters, so I'll stop there because I think my point has been made. Almost every class has some ability as a part of their single target rotation that cleaves. So, then your question to me in your imaginary scenario becomes

"Now would you stop using you Kenki Burst Skills and Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi Namikiri and lose dps like every other class would that needs to hold their cleave abilities that are a part of their single target burst rotations until the add is taken care of (how does one "take care" of an add that wipes the party by having damage dealt to it?) or you just press your skills and wipe?

The answer is, everyone holds those abilities.

[RyuuZero]

We hardly ever press guren or shoha 2. There's ZERO reason for them to be their own button. I generally don't like the whole button bloat argument, but I also don't like redundant skills either. Shoha and Senei could easily act like the myriad of other aoe skills in the game where the first target gets the normal potency and then the remaining targets get a reduced potency hit.

Please don't tell me you Single Target Combo on Big Dungeon Pulls.

And your macro comment doesn't really change the argument that if they wanted to deal with bloat they could have combined ishikoten and ogi without taking away kaiten. Reality is they removed kaiten because of scaling reasons as they are clearly going to be making significant changes to stats and what not in 7.0. Sadly they chose samurai as an early experiment for 7.0 changes they are working on.

though they wanted to address the button bloat and took Kaiten away. My Macro addresses the Button Bloat by making you pressing the same button 3times, try my Macro before saying it doesn't matter^^ but funnily I also have Shoha and Senei on a one button Macro xDD I tell you, we get a Single Target Ogi with 7.0 and there is nothing wrong about this

You don’t need single target and AOE variants of these abilities. Especially when Guren already did it right in SB: it was your second strongest ability, and could be used in both a single target scenario and an AOE scenario. Senei is redundant and needless bloat when Guren already did the same thing prior. And this single-target with AOE falloff isn’t a new concept. It’s still a thing on other jobs now.

Okay Senei is redundant for providing the solution to the single target situation while using the same resource as Guren? Great that AoE falloff stuff is a thing on other jobs, then play those other jobs, I like to play Samurai and the removal of Kaiten is what keeps me from enjoying Samurai

Do not recommend combat macros without also addressing the issues they present within combat. Macros do not queue in this game, and you risk losing more damage in your attempt to consolidate, and from macro misfires. They are not and have never been recommended for general combat uses outside of a handful of oGCD utilities. Never for combo consolidation like what you are suggesting.

Do expect me to write an disclaimer on how and when to use macros? that macro wasn't an order, just a suggestion for something we already can do ourselves or do you want to beg the devs for years until they do? funnily enough a Dragoon change of 6.1 is that jump turns into illusion jump, which I had as a macro for years.

[RyuuZero]

When SAM only had Guren, Guren was used for single target and it wasn't a problem in SB.
Sen'ei was introduced and Guren was only used in multi targets. Guren became button bloat.

Okay Guren is redundant for providing the solution to the AoE situation while using the same resource as Senei?? Guren didn't became Button Bloat, it became the AoE Option

If SQEX introduced those buttons as single target, DRG would be suddenly bloated and the AoE versions would be barely pressed.

but SE did that, DRG has a 3tier AoE Combo that buffs the AoE Combo Starter and Single Target Combo Starter making you able to switch the Single Target Rotation and vise versa, but that's Dragoon not Samurai.

I prefer, instead of imagining, working within reality...
"Knowing when to hit the single target vs AE ability" isn't some major tactical knowledge as you're making it out to be and isn't something that is needed. 2 different versions of the same skill are not needed even within your imaginary scenario, they've done this with a ton of other skills already, this isn't a new idea:

Why do you play a Game with Fantasy in the Title?
Welcome to Alexander 4 Savage where there is an add that you have to kill with specific timing also and there might be even more Fights with addphases like that, luckily for A4S is lvl60 so you have Higanbana&Midare and unsynced makes that fight melt anyway but the devs can always bring that mechanic back. Interesting that you list all the Job like they're so similar, do you really want to sit on your resources until the situation is fitting?

This is why they removed Kaiten, they do not know how to play this Job just "Delete Kaiten, buff all the Skills" without thinking of the Ripple Effect that comes to the Gameplay and you guys all come up with those wild and unrelated ideas because the devs stated "button bloat". They effectivily just took away one button and Samurai now sucks as result but seeing all these ideas of merging skills it just was a matter of time until they ruined Samurai. Let's just argee on One Thing: They have to Bring Back Kaiten

[HyoMinPark]

Do expect me to write an disclaimer on how and when to use macros? that macro wasn't an order, just a suggestion for something we already can do ourselves or do you want to beg the devs for years until they do? funnily enough a Dragoon change of 6.1 is that jump turns into illusion jump, which I had as a macro for years.

Yes. Because you can’t shove a suggestion in someone’s face without also pointing out that utilizing combat macros has its downsides. You should always present the pros and cons of macros when suggesting them. Especially when you insist on doubling down on the suggestion:

though they wanted to address the button bloat and took Kaiten away. My Macro addresses the Button Bloat by making you pressing the same button 3times, try my Macro before saying it doesn't matter^^ but funnily I also have Shoha and Senei on a one button Macro xDD I tell you

I wonder how much damage you’ve lost out on with your poor macros. Or how many times they’ve misfired. More than you probably realize, I’m guessing.

we get a Single Target Ogi with 7.0 and there is nothing wrong about this

Yes there is, because it just adds to the redundancy and bloat problem. You do not need AOE and single target variants of the same skill when you already have AOE cleaves that are also viable in single target.

Okay Senei is redundant for providing the solution to the single target situation while using the same resource as Guren? Great that AoE falloff stuff is a thing on other jobs, then play those other jobs, I like to play Samurai and the removal of Kaiten is what keeps me from enjoying Samurai

Yes, it is redundant. Because Guren in SB already did what Senei does now. There was zero reason to add a second skill that did the same thing except was single-target.

And please with the “go play something else” response. Tired of seeing this non-argument. Come up with something better.

but SE did that, DRG has a 3tier AoE Combo that buffs the AoE Combo Starter and Single Target Combo Starter making you able to switch the Single Target Rotation and vise versa, but that's Dragoon not Samurai.

Okay and SAM already had an AOE rotation akin to DRG’s 3-tier AOE combo. And they also apply the same self buffs now. This is an irrelevant argument because it has nothing to do with the Guren/Senei and Shoha/Shoha II redundancy. Or even the Shinten/Kyuten redundancy.

[Renalt]

There was a way to like...rotate combo action abilities into the same button...hmmm....if only...

*stares with disappointment at his PvP profile since it is a mechanic already in game but they just don't use it*