What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

ARR was bloated by the numerous inane fetch quests and needless back and forth trips to the Waking Sands, not because it stopped to think about the consequences of the actions of the player character and their allies. It's also generally considered wise to stop and think things through before taking major risks - but with the game's aversion to consequences for the protagonists, every 'risk' becomes a certain victory which is pretty dull as far as I'm concerned. Nothing feels earned anymore.

Especially when the finale boss of a decade long story arc spends 40% of her health bar flailing around.

[Nilroreo]

So, what you're saying is that before taking any action in the world of the present, those involved should sit down and consider what effects it could have on civilizations that -might- exist someday, somewhere, and how said action will affect them.

That makes for a gripping story. We can go back to the ARR days where we have 5 or 6 quests where we run back and forth to get tidbits of dialogue discussing the ramifications of our potential actions on civilizations that may or may not exist a few hundred to a few thousand years from now.

But padding and story bloat is always good. I remember ARR quite fondly for all it had.

I meant future expansions. Civilizations that might currently exist in Meracydia, the new world, other shards etc.

[Valfreyja]

I really can't tell if this is a serious question. When deciding on whether or not to implement Time Travel to undo history, then yes. I think it's fair to ask that some time be taken to consider how this may affect civilizations of the future. You're trying to make it sound as though the poster suggested that we sit down and discuss every mundane point of action that we do in the game before we do it, but that is a misrepresentation of her statement.

That's the thing. Time Travel wasn't taken to undo history.

Time Travel was undertaken in order to try to figure out if people from Elpis could help understand what was going on with the Final Days.

You didn't go back to undo anything.

People are trying to act like the WoL going back in time was to change what happened. And that isn't what the story is. The WoL went back in time because they always did.

That's how it was portrayed and there is really no changing that fact now, no matter how hard people want to argue.

The WoL was present for the trigger of the Final Days. They played a role in it. Just like Hermes, Meteion, Venat, and Emet Selch all played their roles. None of them are solely responsible for it. Each of them had a part in it.

I meant future expansions. Civilizations that might currently exist in Meracydia, the new world, other shards etc.

But how are we threatening those civilizations? By what actions are we putting them at risk?

[PawPaw]

That's the thing. Time Travel wasn't taken to undo history.

Time Travel was undertaken in order to try to figure out if people from Elpis could help understand what was going on with the Final Days.

You didn't go back to undo anything.

People are trying to act like the WoL going back in time was to change what happened. And that isn't what the story is. The WoL went back in time because they always did.

That's how it was portrayed and there is really no changing that fact now, no matter how hard people want to argue.

The WoL was present for the trigger of the Final Days. They played a role in it. Just like Hermes, Meteion, Venat, and Emet Selch all played their roles. None of them are solely responsible for it. Each of them had a part in it.


But how are we threatening those civilizations? By what actions are we putting them at risk?

First of all, the original statement was referring to the moment that the Exarch and Urianger are discussing the 8UC, which is to say, the alternate timeline which was created after the 8th Umbral Calamity. This timeline was created because G'raha Tia and the Ironworks decided that it was worth rewriting history, to stop the 8UC from ever happening and saving the life of your character who dies during said calamity. That is Time Travel, Time Travel which is undertaken to undo history.



In fact, the presence of that timeline? That's one of the reasons people are so angry about EW. Because in the EP just previously, they based an enormous part of the story on the fact that Time Travel was implemented to change the past and in the process of doing so, a branch was made and both timelines still exist. While in EW? Nope, we are suddenly told that there was no way to have a timeline where Venat isn't a traitor and things end differently. It's just "always been this way". Except it hasn't. And it wasn't that long ago that we were shown exactly that.

[Vahlnir]

Especially when the finale boss of a decade long story arc spends 40% of her health bar flailing around.

To be completely fair, this is probably the one thing that makes the most sense. She spent thousands of years stewing in her own despair and "enlightening" other worlds. As someone who thought she was right and that there was no way she could fail, and who is fueled 98% by emotion, this seems like the most logical reaction. She threw everything she had at us and it wasn't enough, so she basically just starts freaking out. She doesn't know what to do anymore, so...anything is better than nothing, even a tantrum.

[Nilroreo]

But how are we threatening those civilizations? By what actions are we putting them at risk?

I'm not arguing there are currently any civilizations at risk. I'm arguing that anytime a civilization is destroyed due to someone on our side, the game will ALWAYS attempt justify it.

The developers themselves have confirmed Hydaelyn deliberately left a crack in space for Emet and pals to squeeze through to avoid the sundering. This action makes 0 sense if she genuinely believed mankind would be able to overcome any form of adversity on their own, which means she instead did this in order to recreate the exact conditions that resulted specifically in our version of history. What this ultimately means is she NEEDED the Ascians to exist, and she NEEDED 7 shards to be rejoined. Hydaelyn, a character who the devs have gone on record stressing is not supposed to be evil, knowingly orchestrated events that resulted in 7 planets worth of lives being destroyed.

Not once have I ever heard the devs or anyone in game bring attention to this fact, therefore I assume the writers themselves don't see anything wrong with this, thus I'm inclined to believe they can and will do this again in future expansions.

[Lucida3b]

Sorry, I will take the society of ease over one of despair any freaking day and I would strive as WoL to make ours like theirs. All the way to using the power of my seat to draw the shards of our buds back so they exist again fully rejoined.

There is a irony that the devs may have forgotten the fact that they implied a utopia occurs in the future already.

ANYONE REMEMBER ALEXANDER'S ENDING?

[Xirean]

That's the thing. Time Travel wasn't taken to undo history.

Time Travel was undertaken in order to try to figure out if people from Elpis could help understand what was going on with the Final Days.

You didn't go back to undo anything.

People are trying to act like the WoL going back in time was to change what happened. And that isn't what the story is. The WoL went back in time because they always did.

That's how it was portrayed and there is really no changing that fact now, no matter how hard people want to argue.

The WoL was present for the trigger of the Final Days. They played a role in it. Just like Hermes, Meteion, Venat, and Emet Selch all played their roles. None of them are solely responsible for it. Each of them had a part in it.


But how are we threatening those civilizations? By what actions are we putting them at risk?

I think you are confusing things here. I don't actually care why we went back in time. The fact of the matter is that we did and did not try to change things but instead ensured that things would happen exactly the same. If we were simply a time ghost and had no ability to interact I would have had no problem. We just follow, watch, and learn. We view events as they unfolded while having no ability to do anything about anything. This means that the character I play is is not implicated in the destruction of 9+ different civilizations. That's my problem and why I will again press the issue; do not let me talk to a memory and expect me to not try to change things.

Quite frankly it's very odd that you would defend this. We are now playing as an accomplice to the worst crime in this realms history. Why does that not bother you?

[Rulakir]

Hydaelyn, a character who the devs have gone on record stressing is not supposed to be evil, knowingly orchestrated events that resulted in 7 planets worth of lives being destroyed.

This is what's so baffling to me. Venat on paper reads as an antagonist, quite possibly the biggest one in the game as the effects of the sundering overshadow those of the Final Days quite substantially with far lasting consequences. The only thing that makes her 'not a bad guy' is the gross amount of gaslighting the game does. It doesn't matter if her intentions were good and not out of malice, there have been plenty of well-intentioned antagonists who are still antagonists. However, write the WoL and Scions as loving her? Write Emet, a fan favorite and quite possibly the person she screwed over the most, to commend her at the end? Suddenly all is forgiven, apparently. Ignoring the fact that Venat wouldn't have hesitated to sunder the WoL if she had the power and thought it would achieve her goal. She had a very abstract 'love of life' and no loyalty to anyone or anything but her ideals. I guarantee the Scions wouldn't have been okay with it, which makes their acceptance of her actions even more galling due to how grossly self-serving and hypocritical it is.

[Valfreyja]

I think you are confusing things here. I don't actually care why we went back in time. The fact of the matter is that we did and did not try to change things but instead ensured that things would happen exactly the same. If we were simply a time ghost and had no ability to interact I would have had no problem. We just follow, watch, and learn. We view events as they unfolded while having no ability to do anything about anything. This means that the character I play is is not implicated in the destruction of 9+ different civilizations. That's my problem and why I will again press the issue; do not let me talk to a memory and expect me to not try to change things.

Quite frankly it's very odd that you would defend this. We are now playing as an accomplice to the worst crime in this realms history. Why does that not bother you?

It would bother me if I dwelled on it. But honestly...what does anyone think they are gonna accomplish by lamenting it? It's part of the story now. SE is not going to go back and retcon the entire thing, remake Endwalker all over to change that aspect of the story because people don't like it.

It's like people saying they should cut out Zenos from all the stuff he is in, because they don't like him. Or they don't want Raubahn to lose his arm in the ARR patch quests. Or any other number of events that happened that you may or may not like in the story.

At the end of the day, you aren't going to get such drastic changes put into the game. So just...why bother worrying about it? It's a fictional story, in a fictional world. It's not real life. You only end up stressing yourself out when you take these things too seriously.

There are countless pages in this thread of people standing up to say this or that needs to be changed. They don't agree with it. But does anyone honestly think SE is going to make those changes? Maybe they will use it when the story for future expansions is under consideration. But what has happened has happened.