What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[PawPaw]

@HollowedDoll
Headcanon? It is part of the story that the best the Ancients could come up with was Zodiark. They couldn't even figure out WHAT was causing the Final Days.
Yet everyone here is acting as if somehow if they knew, they could? Apparently not, since they weren't even capable of figuring it out, for all their intelligence.
The best they could manage was a shield that required them to sacrifice countless lives.

So, in your mind, they deserved and were fated to die because they couldn't figure it out on their own and could only come up with Zodiark? Tell me, how do you think it would have gone down if our character had kept the truth of what happened on the moon to themselves and decided instead to see if the Sundered were worthy of life by issuing them an arbitrary test to prove their worth. Do you think that the Sundered would have had any clue what was happening and how to solve it if we had kept our knowledge to ourselves, like Venat did? Would they have deserved death if they didn't?

Here's a hint, the sundered would have died screaming and in ignorance. The only reason it worked out for us and not them is because we had all the cards in the game to work with, while they had none.

[Lauront]

The reason he is calling it headcanon is because it is all predicated on her beliefs about things - she believes her people won't change, the writers posit that they probably saw the ancients going the Plenty route (as bad a caricature as it is) if they did not change, so she did what she did. The part which people are throwing into the question is her belief that they wouldn't change. The headcanon part is transmuting this belief of hers (coupled with the fact that she was not upfront with her people) into a certainty. But if Yoshida wants to compare her to SHB Emet-Selch (a character he routinely referred to as a villain in interviews), who am I to disagree?

FWIW, I've done those quests he's referring to and his conclusion could not be more divorced from my own of the ancients, but then I haven't been hit with amnesia since SHB or Elpis sidequests so his attempts to gaslight may not be as successful on me.

BTW, it's best not to rely on summarised versions that eschew some of the nuance in their words - reproduced from the reddit discord (which is pretty faithful to the live translation):

Q: Venat had good intentions and her plan worked out in the end. But as a result the world was Sundered and most of the Ancients suffered. Was Sundering the star really the only way to save it?

A: This is a question that I consulted with Nacchan (Natsuko Ishikawa, Scenario Writer of Endwalker) to come up with the answer so it will make sense when we explain it. At the very least, as Y’shtola theorizes, Venat believed that the Ancients, being so dense in Aether, could not control Dynamis. So she thought they could not have stopped the Final Days and its source. So you know there were other Ancients who thought summoning Zodiark would solve everything but she saw that summoning Zodiark and using it to deflect Meteion’s “Despair Beam” and thought, “even if we were to do this and keep going as we are the rest of the Ancients will probably be unable to change as a people” when she’s looking at Hermes, or “we will always be our own undoing”. If you look at the dungeon, “The Dead Ends”, at the very end there’s a boss called Ra-la, and that’s sort of our vision for what probably would have happened to the Ancients if we just let them continue as they were. So for that reason, she chose to Sunder the star to dilute mankind’s Aether so that someday they might be able to use Dynamis and to fight back against despair and the Final Days at the Source. As she herself says, this is not a simple matter of good and evil and she is agonized over whether her decision is correct and took it all upon herself all these time. I think everyone has a lot of different feelings about Venat and we wanted to communicate to you that Hydaelyn is not evil. However this is the decision she has made and she decided to split the world into 14 parts so that humans can use Dynamis and kill Endsinger, and that decision really makes me think, “Yeah, Venat is definitely an Ancient, huh”.

1. At the end of 5.0 we find out that Emet-Selch has been making these decisions about all of humanity and its imperfection. But at the very end he did grant you one more chance to re-evaluated his judgment. Hermes is also concerned with this to the degree that he erases his memory so that he can once again re-evaluate humanity and everything. He’s really concerned with fairness and humanity’s worth. Venat herself never talks about herself in this lofty way that she is making a judgment on all of mankind but when we see her holding the sword and say “Henceforth he shall walk” and Sundering the world, that really is an ancient moment that shows you how different the wholeness of these Ancient’s worth because normally we normal humans wouldn’t be able to make such a decision for all of mankind, so when I see that I really think, yeah, Venat was really one of them. I do get that Emet-Selch is really popular but I sort of agree with Alphinaud when Emet is talking about judging people and think, “What right does he have to do that?”, and that might be applicable to Venat too, like “What right does she have to do that?” with showing various things about the Ancients and how different they were from us as people and how they were sort of the same, so I think if you go back and look at all of the different parts including the side quest including the Ancients in them, you might find them interesting.

[CrownySuccubus]

It's fine if people want to have different opinions but it's not debating in good faith to throw "headcanon" at an idea that's based on what was said by the people who wrote the story.

I'm sorry, but writers will say anything to make their stories sound deeper than they actually were. In addition, just because they intended one thing when they wrote it doesn't mean they executed it properly.

Was Venat sundering the star truly the only way to save it? Yoshida consulted with Ishikawa, and says as Y’shtola theorized that the Ancients were so dense in aether that they could not control dynamis.

Except they can create things that can. The very fact that Meteion exists proves this.

- In The Dead Ends, the Da’la boss may have been a similar fate awaiting the Ancients in a different future. For that reason, she chose to sunder the star and dilute aether so that mankind could control dynamis and silence the song of oblivion.

The Plenty, as we call it, is its own can of nonsense. An advanced, massively intelligent species that killed themselves because they're too perfect? Right. Sure.

- Venat herself concludes that this is not a moral or just decision and deeply agonizes over it. People have a lot of feelings about this.

"Don't you realize that this hurts me more than it hurts you?!"

- It was that decision, to sunder humanity so that they could control dynamis and kill the Endsinger that said that “Venat is really an Ancient, huh.” A parallel to Emet’s decision and judgment of humanity at the end of Shadowbringers.

Either Venat had more sense than the rest of the Ancients and was right to Sunder them, or she was just another Ancient no better than the rest of them and decided that she alone knew what was right. You can't have it both ways.

- Hermes erases his own memory to, on his terms, judge humanity’s worth. That’s what ties Venat, Emet-Selch, and Hermes together.

Okay, but why though?

Venat decided to accept Hermes' game on his terms and play existential chess with millions of lives at stake.

[Skyborne]

Time is looping again, as someone else comes to throw the TRUEFAX of the story at us in a thread that is about criticizing the story and the narrative/writing...

In any case, the WoL found the truth and s/he went and told everyone who needed to know about it, and they were able to solve it together. That alone makes him/her an infinitely better person than a certain herois but that's just me; the Ancients were basically set up to take the fall and be the original victims/martyrs so that the game world we're playing exists. I am not happy, as I pointed out before, that their motivations were weirdly changed from ShB -> EW and nuance was lost. The problem is... ShB just made them way too likeable.

Those of you that keep throwing up this argument, you really don't understand. A life of joy and happiness and nothing else, isn't a life at all.

You can't appreciate the happy or joyful moments in your life, if that is ALL you have in your life. You become bored of it.

I agree with this, to an extent, but EW was honestly cartoonish and extreme about it to me. Hardship of the daily grind? Sure. Having the end of the world dropped on your head and someone deciding to smash and slam you for "failing" their popquiz? Nah... The "hope" was built upon the bodies of millions/billions, and I'm being told by the game that those millions/billions were just kind of doomed and bad and we shouldn't mourn or remember or love them?

[jameseoakes]

@HollowedDoll

Edit: To all those talking about a world of "constant suffering and misery", have you never had a single joyful moment in your lives? Like...seriously how are none of you getting this?

Sure there are bad moments in life. Just like there are good moments. Such as when you are having fun with your friends, moments with your loved ones, etc.

Those of you that keep throwing up this argument, you really don't understand. A life of joy and happiness and nothing else, isn't a life at all.

You can't appreciate the happy or joyful moments in your life, if that is ALL you have in your life. You become bored of it.

I'd trade being a bit bored to live in a world where people don't starve or freeze to death. I don't think you need suffering to enjoy life especially as that as that suffering often leads to despair

[Valfreyja]

It's fine if people want to have different opinions but it's not debating in good faith to throw "headcanon" at an idea that's based on what was said by the people who wrote the story.

https://novacrystallis.com/2022/02/f...dmap-detailed/

- Was Venat sundering the star truly the only way to save it? Yoshida consulted with Ishikawa, and says as Y’shtola theorized that the Ancients were so dense in aether that they could not control dynamis.
- Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to Meteion’s song of oblivion, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing.
- In The Dead Ends, the Da’la boss may have been a similar fate awaiting the Ancients in a different future. For that reason, she chose to sunder the star and dilute aether so that mankind could control dynamis and silence the song of oblivion.
- Venat herself concludes that this is not a moral or just decision and deeply agonizes over it. People have a lot of feelings about this.
- It was that decision, to sunder humanity so that they could control dynamis and kill the Endsinger that said that “Venat is really an Ancient, huh.” A parallel to Emet’s decision and judgment of humanity at the end of Shadowbringers.
- Hermes erases his own memory to, on his terms, judge humanity’s worth. That’s what ties Venat, Emet-Selch, and Hermes together.
- Emet-Selch is popular, but Yoshida agrees with Alphinaud telling him “what right does he have to do that?” If you go back and look at these parallels you might find them interesting.

Said it better than I could.

@Xirean: No it isn't okay.
But ultimately, what would be the point? It would just branch the timelines, and not solve anything for us.
Stopping the Final Days in the past might save the Ancients and give the warm and fuzzies.

It does literally nothing in our timeline or helps us against the Final Days.
And for the record, I knew the moment I saw the events after Ktisis, that the WoL was a catalyst in the Final Days taking place. Our presence helped to trigger it. Is it okay? No, but that's the story.

[CrownySuccubus]

Edit: To all those talking about a world of "constant suffering and misery", have you never had a single joyful moment in your lives? Like...seriously how are none of you getting this?

Sure there are bad moments in life. Just like there are good moments. Such as when you are having fun with your friends, moments with your loved ones, etc.

Those of you that keep throwing up this argument, you really don't understand. A life of joy and happiness and nothing else, isn't a life at all.

You can't appreciate the happy or joyful moments in your life, if that is ALL you have in your life. You become bored of it.

You, like the story, are making the mistake of blending "coping" and "happiness" as the same thing.

They are not.

If I (hypothetically) murdered your family right now, you may one day get over it and learn to move on and forge a better life through the ashes. That is very possible. But that is you coping with tragedy. Trying to conflate the two is the same type of logic that sociopaths and social darwinists use. "I'm going to make your life hell, and if you survive, you'll thank me for it." "Sorry, having 3 hot meals a day is making you too soft, so I burned your house down and stole all of your money. Now go in the harsh wilderness and hunt, so you can savor every meal."

[jameseoakes]

It's fine if people want to have different opinions but it's not debating in good faith to throw "headcanon" at an idea that's based on what was said by the people who wrote the story.

https://novacrystallis.com/2022/02/f...dmap-detailed/

- Was Venat sundering the star truly the only way to save it? Yoshida consulted with Ishikawa, and says as Y’shtola theorized that the Ancients were so dense in aether that they could not control dynamis.
- Other Ancients concluded that Zodiark was the solution to Meteion’s song of oblivion, but Venat concluded that they could not change as a people and would be their own undoing.
- In The Dead Ends, the Da’la boss may have been a similar fate awaiting the Ancients in a different future. For that reason, she chose to sunder the star and dilute aether so that mankind could control dynamis and silence the song of oblivion.
- Venat herself concludes that this is not a moral or just decision and deeply agonizes over it. People have a lot of feelings about this.
- It was that decision, to sunder humanity so that they could control dynamis and kill the Endsinger that said that “Venat is really an Ancient, huh.” A parallel to Emet’s decision and judgment of humanity at the end of Shadowbringers.
- Hermes erases his own memory to, on his terms, judge humanity’s worth. That’s what ties Venat, Emet-Selch, and Hermes together.
- Emet-Selch is popular, but Yoshida agrees with Alphinaud telling him “what right does he have to do that?” If you go back and look at these parallels you might find them interesting.

I think a lot of my issues is that the story does a terrible job telling this, there seems to be no reason the Ancients couldn't have dealt with the Endsinger given time as there seems to be no reason they couldn't make something to fight her or even sunder some of themselves by choice to fighter her or the like. Venat is just evil, the ancients failed to meet her standards so she murdered them all

[Xirean]

Said it better than I could.

@Xirean: No it isn't okay.
But ultimately, what would be the point? It would just branch the timelines, and not solve anything for us.
Stopping the Final Days in the past might save the Ancients and give the warm and fuzzies.

It does literally nothing in our timeline or helps us against the Final Days.
And for the record, I knew the moment I saw the events after Ktisis, that the WoL was a catalyst in the Final Days taking place. Our presence helped to trigger it. Is it okay? No, but that's the story.

The point is that we know that time can branch and make entire other realities. That second timeline of Elpis still exists right now and we actively go back there for Pandaemonium. We know where Meteion is, how to stop her, and can make it happen likely far more easily given that she isn't actually at the height of her power yet in that timeline. Every single moment that we don't go deal with her in the Elpis second timeline is us choosing to force them down a path that will lead to all but a handful dying.

[HollowedDoll]

Great come back, please with all your intelligence guess the color that I'm thinking of. If you're not capable of that I'll call Mommy Venat to replace your entire neighborhood with Lalafell.