What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[not_ya_wify]

Having said that, I would have worked tirelessly to find an alternate way to do it, but I'm not one who would've accepted the violation the sundering was because 'what's done is done' .

Also, whether or not someone would consent to being rejoined is subjective. I've often thought the Ascians probably could have developed a following similar to WoW's Cult of the Damned.

That is what I'd been wanting after Shadowbringers. Find a way to rejoin souls without rejoining the whole planet and causing calamities like floods and diseases.

However, after Endwalker we could just avoid all of that. Avoid all the moral gray areas, all the genocide, all the suffering, the question of whether rejoining souls is good or bad by simply preventing all of that from happening in the first place. Here's what I would do if my character wasn't tempered by Hydaelyn and I could do whatever the fuck I want:

Step 1: Ignore Venat when she says not to help or tell Emet-Selch what happened.
Step 2: Travel to Sharlayan and ask G'raha where exactly in the Crystal Tower he left all the documentation on time travel.
Step 3: Travel to the first and find the time travel documents.
Step 4: Make copies.
Step 5: Travel to Elpis and ask for directions to Amaurot.
Step 6: Travel to Amaurot and request an audience with Emet-Selch because it concerns the survival of the star.
Step 7 Optional quest fluff: Get denied an audience because "who are you? Emet-Selch doesn't have time to talk to children."
Step 8 optional quest fluff: Wait for Emet-Selch to finish work and stalk him home or instead go to the bureau of the architect and request an audience with Hythlodaeus to put in a good word for you to talk with Emet-Selch.
Step 9: Ask Emet-Selch to use the Echo to look into your memories and see what happened in Elpis.
Step 10: See Emet-Selch despair.
Step 11: Tell Emet-Selch, "no worries, I got you babe. Here are documents that detail how to travel back in time. Just set up a time portal like Elidibus did in my time and get Hermes some professional help in a mental hospital preferably with rubber walls and some mechanism to prevent him from using creation Magicks before he can create all the Meteion sisters."
Step 12: Emet-Selch rewards you with sweet love making.

No Meteion, no final days, no other planets succumbing to the end singer, no sacrifice, no zodiark, no Hydaelyn, no sundering, no rejoining, no choosing between one life over the other. Just good old saving the world with things that are already established to be possible in canon.

[Raoabolic]

That is what I'd been wanting after Shadowbringers. Find a way to rejoin souls without rejoining the whole planet and causing calamities like floods and diseases.

However, after Endwalker we could just avoid all of that. Avoid all the moral gray areas, all the genocide, all the suffering, the question of whether rejoining souls is good or bad by simply preventing all of that from happening in the first place. Here's what I would do if my character wasn't tempered by Hydaelyn and I could do whatever the fuck I want:

Step 1: Ignore Venat when she says not to help or tell Emet-Selch what happened.
Step 2: Travel to Sharlayan and ask G'raha where exactly in the Crystal Tower he left all the documentation on time travel.
Step 3: Travel to the first and find the time travel documents.
Step 4: Make copies.
Step 5: Travel to Elpis and ask for directions to Amaurot.
Step 6: Travel to Amaurot and request an audience with Emet-Selch because it concerns the survival of the star.
Step 7 Optional quest fluff: Get denied an audience because "who are you? Emet-Selch doesn't have time to talk to children."
Step 8 optional quest fluff: Wait for Emet-Selch to finish work and stalk him home or instead go to the bureau of the architect and request an audience with Hythlodaeus to put in a good word for you to talk with Emet-Selch.
Step 9: Ask Emet-Selch to use the Echo to look into your memories and see what happened in Elpis.
Step 10: See Emet-Selch despair.
Step 11: Tell Emet-Selch, "no worries, I got you babe. Here are documents that detail how to travel back in time. Just set up a time portal like Elidibus did in my time and get Hermes some professional help in a mental hospital preferably with rubber walls and some mechanism to prevent him from using creation Magicks before he can create all the Meteion sisters."
Step 12: Emet-Selch rewards you with sweet love making.

No Meteion, no final days, no other planets succumbing to the end singer, no sacrifice, no zodiark, no Hydaelyn, no sundering, no rejoining, no choosing between one life over the other. Just good old saving the world with things that are already established to be possible in canon.

Step 13: All the major leaders in Eorza go "YOU DID WHAT?!" as they gaussian blur out of existence followed by the source and all it's shards
Step 14: new game +

[Xirean]

There's a few things being ignored in that analogy. A vase has a purpose. It was crafted with the explicit intention to fulfill that purpose. This is rather similar to the wildlife that the Convocation creates. They often refer to themselves as caretakers of the star. They are very used to making things with a purpose and judging how well those things fulfill that purpose. The big disconnect here is that the sundered do not fall into this category. The exist as a result of the convocation but aside from Venat, there was no decision to create those people. Venat didn't even make them, she broke existing people into other, generally less capable, people. Those people do not then take up the mantel of caretaker of the star. They have little way of doing so. They are simply people trying to live their lives. The Ascians who were outright robbed of their people and way of life are completely justified in their anger and resentment of this act. But they continue to do the one thing they have always done. Judge those beings who exist and determine that they do not fulfill the Ascian intended purpose of caretaker of the star. They have no right to do this.

IRL people discuss the morality of eating animals. I've seen this brought up in this and other threads as an appropriate analogy to the sundered and unsundered. The problem though is that it simply is not sufficient. The sundered are not cattle, they are not monkeys or dolphins of which we have the ability to measure intelligence from, but lack larger means to communicate with. It's impressive that we can teach an ape sign language but it pales in comparison to the situation with the sundered and unsundered. The two can have a full on philosophical conversation about the ethics of the situation. There is no way to say that the sundered are not intelligent life with hopes, dreams, and values. The fact of the matter is that the Ascians we have met all display a lack of concern for the sundered's culture. Alphinaud said it best "We define our worth! Not the circumstances of our creation!" Ryne also states in the Eden questline "You won't even give us a chance to make something for ourselves."

It's not so simple a situation as broken pieces of a vase. Those shards may not be able to create life on the scale that their predecessors can, but they can do some pretty incredible things. They are also physically capable of manipulating dynamis directly. Something the Ancients simply cannot do.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Not the circumstances of our creation!" Ryne also states in the Eden questline "You won't even give us a chance to make something for ourselves."

It's not so simple a situation as broken pieces of a vase. Those shards may not be able to create life on the scale that their predecessors can, but they can do some pretty incredible things. They are also physically capable of manipulating dynamis directly. Something the Ancients simply cannot do.

Tbf Alphinaud says a lot of stupid shit that he never backs up. For example he says this in ShB: "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act."Meanwhile he’s nothing but googly eyes for venat/hydaelyn and doesn’t call her out whatsoever.

As for Ryne’s comment… That’s exactly what Emet selch did for years, and he saw how flawed the sundered were, their fragility being what ends up breaking him and solidifying his stance.

As for doing incredible things….like what exactly? Almost every feat we and the sundered do is because of higher up entities helping us. Manipulating dynamis is utterly useless in 99.9% of situations because aether is stronger than it. Even disregarding that the lore on it is wonky. Venat sundered them to be able to manipulate dynamis yet we, the WoL have no problem manipulating it despite being what, 8/14? 9/14? Also if we go with the lb=dynamis theory supported by Meteion, then the ancients can indeed manipulate it, it’s just a matter of honing that skill.

[Xirean]

Tbf Alphinaud says a lot of stupid shit that he never backs up. For example he says this in ShB: "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act."Meanwhile he’s nothing but googly eyes for venat/hydaelyn and doesn’t call her out whatsoever.

As for Ryne’s comment… That’s exactly what Emet selch did for years, and he saw how flawed the sundered were, their fragility being what ends up breaking him and solidifying his stance.

As for doing incredible things….like what exactly? Almost every feat we and the sundered do is because of higher up entities helping us. Manipulating dynamis is utterly useless in 99.9% of situations because aether is stronger than it. Even disregarding that the lore on it is wonky. Venat sundered them to be able to manipulate dynamis yet we, the WoL have no problem manipulating it despite being what, 8/14? 9/14? Also if we go with the lb=dynamis theory supported by Meteion, then the ancients can indeed manipulate it, it’s just a matter of honing that skill.

The LB thing is a bit of a issue I'll give you that. I mainly took that moment as the WoL's LB is dynamis. Elidibus is channeling A LOT of WoL's and they can all manipulate dynamis. Hades and Venat are really the only two that stick out as questionable and that's fair to point them out. Maybe theirs work differently. Venat's certainly looks different.

Emet created the empire explicitly to create endless conflict on the star. He says as much when we first see him in the post StB cutscenes. Either way if he was trying to give the Sundered a chance for many years prior to doing so. Good. But his conclusion that he has the right to judge and destroy them is wrong.

A lot of dumb things are said and happen around Hydaelyn. I'm not happy about it either. Regardless Alphinaud stating that he wouldn't want to live in a rejoined world because it would effectively erase the existing history and culture is completely fair. It's his history and culture, he has a right to try to defend it.

Your mention of higher ups helping the sundered is precisely why I want to see where the story goes from here. No more help, no more training wheels. No more outside influence. Creating their own civilizations is still something the sundered did without help, though. They also built their own spaceships; one of which can reach the edge of the universe. Some discovered how to summon dark souls from the void realm, that didn't come with outside influence. Oh let's also not forget a time machine.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The LB thing is a bit of a issue I'll give you that. I mainly took that moment as the WoL's LB is dynamis. Elidibus is channeling A LOT of WoL's and they can all manipulate dynamis. Hades and Venat are really the only two that stick out as questionable and that's fair to point them out. Maybe theirs work differently. Venat's certainly looks different.

Emet created the empire explicitly to create endless conflict on the star. He says as much when we first see him in the post StB cutscenes. Either way if he was trying to give the Sundered a chance for many years prior to doing so. Good. But his conclusion that he has the right to judge and destroy them is wrong.

A lot of dumb things are said and happen around Hydaelyn. I'm not happy about it either. Regardless Alphinaud stating that he wouldn't want to live in a rejoined world because it would effectively erase the existing history and culture is completely fair. It's his history and culture, he has a right to try to defend it.

Your mention of higher ups helping the sundered is precisely why I want to see where the story goes from here. No more help, no more training wheels. No more outside influence. Creating their own civilizations is still something the sundered did without help, though. They also built their own spaceships; one of which can reach the edge of the universe. Some discovered how to summon dark souls from the void realm, that didn't come with outside influence. Oh let's also not forget a time machine.

The time machine was from higher up help though lol. It was an ascian who helped awaken alexander and omega is an unsundered entity.We still do have outside influence, we still have the blessing. We still have the azem crystal. Hell, they relied on a giant primal for 12k+ years to defend them from Meteion.

Imo i think Emet does have a right to do that. These people are living at the expense of his own, and their lives only last a tiny minuscule fraction that the ancient lives last. It’s numbers. Again, statistically, leaving the sundered world as it is is causing more death in the long run than a one and done rejoining would. I’m not saying the sundered don’t technically have a right to defend themselves, but the ascians/ancients have that same right because it’s one group of people existing at the other’s expense.

[Xirean]

The time machine was from higher up help though lol. It was an ascian who helped awaken alexander and omega is an unsundered entity.We still do have outside influence, we still have the blessing. We still have the azem crystal. Hell, they relied on a giant primal for 12k+ years to defend them from Meteion.

Imo i think Emet does have a right to do that. These people are living at the expense of his own, and their lives only last a tiny minuscule fraction that the ancient lives last. It’s numbers. Again, statistically, leaving the sundered world as it is is causing more death in the long run than a one and done rejoining would. I’m not saying the sundered don’t technically have a right to defend themselves, but the ascians/ancients have that same right because it’s one group of people existing at the other’s expense.

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

[Raoabolic]

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

Genocide means you are mass killing something you can relate to. Emet sees the WoL and his kind as ants. Killing an ant colony isn't genocide. It's a jerk move at absolute worst and dealing with pests at best.

[Theodric]

Then you are justifying genocide. Congratulations, you played yourself. I'm done with you.

It's fiction. None of it is real. The characters are pixels on a screen.

The attempts to try and portray people as 'wrong' or 'bad' for favouring darker stories in a video game are little more than the same sort of puritan attempts to try and declare that video games should be banned because they inspire violence.

If you, yourself, feel that you'll go out and commit genocide because a character you support in a video game did the same thing then fair enough. Personally I have more faith in people to not assume that because they join the Dark Brotherhood in an Elder Scrolls game then that is equal to advocating support for paid assassinations.

[Xirean]

It's fiction. None of it is real. The characters are pixels on a screen.

The attempts to try and portray people as 'wrong' or 'bad' for favouring darker stories in a video game are little more than the same sort of puritan attempts to try and declare that video games should be banned because they inspire violence.

If you, yourself, feel that you'll go out and commit genocide because a character you support in a video game did the same thing then fair enough. Personally I have more faith in people to not assume that because they join the Dark Brotherhood in an Elder Scrolls game then that is equal to advocating support for paid assassinations.

Enjoying dark storylines is fine. Roleplaying a dark character is fine. Arguing that genocide is justified and actually meaning that, is not. Genocide is bad always. Anyone who thinks a genocide is justified ever is messed up.