DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

[Packetdancer]

it's why i made another thread suggesting more job oriented halls at level 50 and level cap allowing people to learn/practice more niche tricks for their jobs like double life of the dragon window for DRG or preplanning earthly star as AST

I've long wanted a "Hall of the Master" equivalent to Hall of the Novice, with some role (or job) specific fights almost the way BLU has Masked Carnivale. But I mean, I even wrote up a design document for a hypothetical version of this just to get it out of my system.

Folks love to talk on the forums about the people they meet who don't want to improve, but I run into more people who do want to improve and are at a loss as to how -- or where to go to find out. (Or even who don't have any idea they do have room to improve.) The game gives folks no official way to do that and very little guidance on things that aren't necessarily obvious to new players (I have opinions on some of the tooltips in this game and how they could be clarified). And even so far as unofficial methods of measuring your personal improvement go, the tools the community uses aren't really available for console players.

[pikalovr]

I've long wanted a "Hall of the Master" equivalent to Hall of the Novice, with some role (or job) specific fights almost the way BLU has Masked Carnivale. But I mean, I even wrote up a design document for a hypothetical version of this just to get it out of my system.

Folks love to talk on the forums about the people they meet who don't want to improve, but I run into more people who do want to improve and are at a loss as to how -- or where to go to find out. (Or even who don't have any idea they do have room to improve.) The game gives folks no official way to do that and very little guidance on things that aren't necessarily obvious to new players (I have opinions on some of the tooltips in this game and how they could be clarified). And even so far as unofficial methods of measuring your personal improvement go, the tools the community uses aren't really available for console players.

exactly it's why i thought about it cause i was doing my level 50 job quest as DRG and kited estinien only timing my jumps when he was casting to maintain distance and it got me to thinking like there's no place that teaches you how to optimize disengaging and reengaging for example i would much rather have them create the tools to help explain or teach things than just rip them out.

if it's still confusing to the majority after they do the hall a few times (cause some things may take a few times to get down/master) then it is indeed something that should be looked at mechanically/kit wise

[Ronduwil]

Not pulling everything is almost akin to trolling at this point of the game, imo, because of all the strength every single job has and the ease of the game.

The many wipes I've recently had in Aurum Vale says differently. When you limit yourself to always playing with the best of the best, the game is of course going to be laughably easy. In mixed company, this is not the case. In fact, SE has even intervened to prevent excessive pulling at this point because of the crazy disparity in perspective between new players and veterans. Notice how the MSQ rework introduced a bunch of extra walls so that the group can't pull more than three packs before having to stop and fight to move on. The newest dungeons are designed similarly. I'm sorry that you perceive a slower pace as players trolling you. I can't speak for anyone else's intentions, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Some people prefer a slower pace, and that's OK by me. I'm flexible in that regard.

The modern consensus seems to be that those players should stick to trusts. Ironically, the same vocal set seems to also complain that the game is being overly casualized by making trusts available earlier in the game. It's like SE can't win with this community. I see the situation as a real shame. Ultimately it stratifies the player base to the point of creating a false perception of everyone's skill level. The best players end up playing exclusively with the best of the best, leading to this idea that the game is laughably easy and that anyone who isn't horribad is going to be bored with it after week 1. The less skilled players end up being forced to play solo just to be able to explore and appreciate the scenery on their first run through the dungeon, leading to quite the shock when they finally try to venture in to group content.

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead. That's why I'm playing this game now instead of running M+ dungeons in WoW. I just get annoyed when I see so much support for go go go dungeoneering because I saw where that philosophy took WoW, and I'd hate to see this game go that way as well.

[Thorio]

They are expanding it quickly. Soon all important dungeons will have trusts and if the game dies as an mmo it won't be because developers put in a solo option, but because players could never get along or be polite to each other so they'd rather do things alone. I would be shocked if any developer comes into these forums and doesn't conclude "wow these people hate each other, we need to make this solo friendly".

It has been happening since ARR when their final msq dungeons admittedly, badly designed, brought out the worst in people and vets steamrolled the content without any regard for the newbies watching the cutscenes. It's not new, just the logical outcome.

Yeah I'm not about to stop playing the game for god knows how long it will take for it to reach sb since not even hw has it yet. People can chill when they see "one or more players are new to this duty" message so it's fine, we're not on a schedule and ffxiv isn't my life.

[rewd]

The many wipes I've recently had in Aurum Vale says differently.

It's called "exception to the rule" for a reason.

[EnigmaticDodo]

The many wipes I've recently had in Aurum Vale says differently. When you limit yourself to always playing with the best of the best, the game is of course going to be laughably easy. In mixed company, this is not the case. In fact, SE has even intervened to prevent excessive pulling at this point because of the crazy disparity in perspective between new players and veterans. Notice how the MSQ rework introduced a bunch of extra walls so that the group can't pull more than three packs before having to stop and fight to move on. The newest dungeons are designed similarly. I'm sorry that you perceive a slower pace as players trolling you. I can't speak for anyone else's intentions, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt. Some people prefer a slower pace, and that's OK by me. I'm flexible in that regard.

The modern consensus seems to be that those players should stick to trusts. Ironically, the same vocal set seems to also complain that the game is being overly casualized by making trusts available earlier in the game. It's like SE can't win with this community. I see the situation as a real shame. Ultimately it stratifies the player base to the point of creating a false perception of everyone's skill level. The best players end up playing exclusively with the best of the best, leading to this idea that the game is laughably easy and that anyone who isn't horribad is going to be bored with it after week 1. The less skilled players end up being forced to play solo just to be able to explore and appreciate the scenery on their first run through the dungeon, leading to quite the shock when they finally try to venture in to group content.

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead. That's why I'm playing this game now instead of running M+ dungeons in WoW. I just get annoyed when I see so much support for go go go dungeoneering because I saw where that philosophy took WoW, and I'd hate to see this game go that way as well.

* Aurum Vales first room, and maybe 2 other dungeons (Bardams and Lv79 Dungeon) are exceptions to the 'pull everything' mentality. (There are approx. 85 dungeons, so 2.5% give or take of all dungeons are possibly an issue)
* I don't personally play with the best of the best. People at all skill/level ranges are capable of doing larger pulls on the tank side and healing it from the healer side.
* Mythic+, from what I've heard, doesn't even remotely compare to doing big pulls in 14. Comparing these two is honestly laughable, I'm sorry to say.
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You're free to perceive the game as being difficult, but seriously, all that is expected of you in Dungeons is; for example if you're Warrior; Overpower -> Mythril Tempest & cycle your defensives (Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Shake it off, Rampart, Reprisal, Arm's Length).

That is asking you to do a 2 Button loop and use 8 abilities one by one as their durations expire. Maybe using 2 of those 8 abilities at one point if you're taking a particularly large amount of damage. This is assuming level 90 of course, the lower you go, the less of those 8 abilities you have to worry about.

Is that really such a big ask? If it is, I do apologize. I do not intend to be disparaging, just wish to have a discussion. I want to understand your point of view.

(Note: There is an offensive rotation you could be doing as well with other OGCDs, but I'm talking about what's asked of you minimally.)

[pikalovr]

snip

the best of the best ok bud when i have sprouts that can wall to wall pull better than level 80+ tanks we ain't always playing with the "BEST of the BEST" we still have tanks at level80 and above that still want to single pull and mind you no there's not a first time player in here message either.

no the MSQ rework put it in line with modern dungeon design aka like 3-4 mob packs boss 3-4 mob packs boss 3-4 mob packs boss

trusts were created purely cause people wanted the you know COMPANIONS that we've been travelling with us to join us and yes it is seen as a casual player should use this if they want to go slow cause it's quite literally no conflicting viewpoints the NPCs only move as fast as you do just like faster players could also use it but it's still way slower than just having 4 humans run it not to mention roulettes are still a thing

i'm flexible as well unless it's post ARR content by then you should know your jobs role well enough to wall to wall pull if you can't even do that with how simplified the role is now tanking may not be for you (exceptions to the rule do exist of course like disabilities but those are understandable anyways and another reason why trusts are a great system to have implemented cause it's far harder to tell the difference between somebody who might be disabled and say like the guys in this thread who are griefing cause mister DPS used a ranged attack to pull before them)

also stop with the whole this divides the game some people legit just don't want to deal with others and there are even extremely competent players that run the trusts to ignore people. if you're shocked by the speed of current groups when you do for example hit HW that should be a wake up point that maybe i can be playing my role better if thats what's expected of me. stop coddling people just because they refuse to accept any challenge or get anxiety at the slightest difficulty

finally some people don't have hours to play this game and when dailies alone can take upwards of 2 hours to do for some roles it's almost as if there's a reason people want to get through content quickly

hell even i have multiple hours to play each day and think the amount of time needed to do my daily roulettes is a bit much. it's not even looking at it like a chore it's if you want to get through the mundane stuff and get to the fun stuff (fun is subjective so that's not even worth arguing for anything cause there will always be conflicting viewpoints regardless)

also wowhas something ffxiv doesn't actually engaging gameplay which is what makes speed running dungeons fun say what you will about blizzard acivision and their story and how they handle their fans but wow has had an extremely good and satisfying gameplay system

now compare that to FFXIV where as i said for a tank it's literally tank stace pull mobs using AOEs and sit there and spam one AOE til mobs died and you see why people want to wall to wall pull it makes stuff mroe engagin it keeps the healer engaged it gives the DPS more reason to blow their CDs making it more engaging for them etc... tanks actually ahve to move to avoid AOEs and have to handle higher damage input

there's far more that goes into why people speedrun dungeons than you give credit for

[MiaShino]

Is that really such a big ask? If it is, I do apologize. I do not intend to be disparaging, just wish to have a discussion. I want to understand your point of view.

The big big issue with the players like this comes from the term theory of mind, something most struggle with.

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead.

For them going slow and steady is fun. Because it is fun for them it should be fun for all. This is where theory of mind assists. Fun is a spectrum a concept most subjective with much variance across all. So many attribute effort with not having fun because they also view video games as toys for the children. Therefor they struggle to make next logical connection that the rest of the party may find going zoom fun.

[Broken_Wind]

there's far more that goes into why people speedrun dungeons than you give credit for

Speed run is a niche playstyle
And Mythic+ has not been good for WoW's overall population, because a large portion of people do not enjoy the pressure that goes with time constraints
Yes, the hardcore players love it. But it hasn't exactly done wonders for the game's population

Also, there is a difference between slow, wall 2 wall, and speed run.

Wall 2 wall with non interesting trash is bad game design, but its where we are and it is designed to pull wall 2 wall in most places. So it should be done once a tank gets comfortable, and I would say the amount of tanks that don't at least pull 2 packs at a time is less than 5%

I don't think its unreasonable to expect a minimum of 2 packs per pull in sub 70 dungeons as standard, with the understanding that a pure sprout may still not be used to this mentality and needs to be trained
Yes, by the time the tank is 80+ they should be wall 2 walling, I don't disagree with that.
The recent dungeon changes have actually helped support teaching new players to wall 2 wall, as they have taken away one of the early pain points of wall 2 wall where wipes happened often (Brayflox swamp) on new tanks/healers and Toto Rak is more of the new style of pulls as well.

I do think its unreasonable to expect people will pop sprint immediately upon death of the last mob/boss with no gap in between anything. I do think its polite to see if everyone is moving, and if not to wait 5-10 seconds after a boss pull for a sprout to try on the loot drop to see if they want it for glam or for someone to take a quick drink.

And if you want the speed run to try to save that extra 30 seconds, then ask upfront. There is a good chance people adjust for you. 9 times out of 10 I would.

[Coletergeist]

I personally feel that games are for fun, and I don't mind taking time to savor my fun. If I viewed this game as a miserable chore that had to be rushed through, I would just find something fun to do instead. That's why I'm playing this game now instead of running M+ dungeons in WoW. I just get annoyed when I see so much support for go go go dungeoneering because I saw where that philosophy took WoW, and I'd hate to see this game go that way as well.

Well at least consider this; the *majority* of the playerbase has this go go go dungeoneering mindset and wants to get done with dungeons fast and not savor being in there longer than they have to be, because for the most part, it's not fun to do the same content we've ran a hundred to a thousand times. Sure, I may look around when there are brand new dungeons, but after I've ran it once, I go back in there to get something else like a drop or tomestones, as I'm sure goes for many other players. If you want to take a stroll through the park and savor your fun, do so not at the expense of other players that mostly want to just get the thing done.

It's *not* a chore to go fast, that's what makes it fun. If I have to heal a tank that wants to take that stroll and savor their fun, I'd be pressing one button and wouldn't have to heal because there's nothing else left for me to do due to the tank taking baby damage (and how tanks have self healing and also pop that because usually single pullers are also the "I'm scared and think the healer won't heal me through this very minimal damage so Imma heal myself). I'm sure DPS would rather also take down a larger mob than little ones throughout the dungeons. It's *not* fun to do small pulls; idk who finds that fun...sounds rather not fun.