White Mage's 6.1 changes fail to address a core issue I have with the job.

[WaxSw]

Well that's kind of impossible to do when the cooldown is 60 seconds, and perhaps it would be best to raise it to 90 seconds, but you can't exactly use a lily that you gain 1 of every 20 seconds exclusively on a 60 second cooldown. You'd sit on so many wasted lilies that you'd be highly suboptimized.

If you see my examples I never said we used lilies exclusively in propagation (maybe the "it woudnt be held for heals" caused a misunderstanding I was simply mentioning the lily designated to propagation, not all the lilies) but every minute it would be used as it aligns with how dia is reapplied and is a dps gain if it replaces it, since its tied to the Dia timer in the end which is a loss if you delay it I dont see a charge system there being much of a gain as its a system that tries to prevent dps loses from delaying actions.

[rewd]

I mean yes, but I was replying to someone suggesting that blowing lilies as often as possible was the name of the game.

Still hate 'em. You can use them for moving (and overhealing) or weaving (and overhealing). They're like a more sophisticated Freecure trap. They allow you to do important, useful things by funneling you into casting healing spells whether they're useful or not, which is how bad healers play. I'd much rather a system that rewards the player for timing their resource use well, or tempts them with tough choices that all lead to positive outcomes that are hard to discern which is better. Lilies are like that bad healer tutorial on the sidelines shouting "you should be casting healing spells constantly, all the time! That's how skilled healers play".

I agree, but I'd say this is not a WHM problem but a game design as a whole problem. Having a proper resource management means you can fail, and that's not something it should happen in this game. They are even coming for DPS now (see: removal of Kaiten so Samurai kenki management is just mindless Shinten spam now).

I disliked lilies in ShB for that reason exactly: I thought it was stupid that I needed to use a healing skill just to move, or even worse, just to weave... An healing oGCD. Some people thought it was complexity, but I thought it was just really terrible design especially if compared to AST and SCH.

Now we still kinda do the same, but at least I don't feel punished in 5 different ways just for using the job gauge. So it is a step in the right direction, but it's basically the start of the road. And I honestly have no idea how you can save the current lily system especially under the current job design philosophy.

[Semirhage]

I'd even understand it more if the lilies applied regen effects. Sure, the target might be healthy now, but a good ticking regen has wider windows of usefulness on a tank than a Cure 2 healbomb. It would still have the same terrible perverse incentive system, but you'd have more chances to get something out of it. Take Astro's cards as an example. They may be busywork. Their effects may be negligible. They may be bloated to hell and back. There's no reason for there to be six total cards other than a weird marriage of history and modern expansion flinging things at a wall to see what sticks. But -what- they reward you for doing is the right thing. What they encourage you to do is the right thing. You get to make choices about applying buffs to party members, and these buffs explicitly have "right" and "wrong" choices baked in, so you're rewarded for paying attention and being selective. You're not rewarded in a way that's noticeable or that feels good, but they're at least aiming you in the direction of wielding things in a skilled way before they shoot their underwhelming shot.

WHM's job gauge aims you at chadding your cohealer, timing your spells so their primary effects would be afterthoughts, blowing your resources whenever and rewarding you no matter how thoughtlessly you barf heals all over the place. Like a Sylphie. WHM's job gauge encourages you to play healers like a Sylphie. The people who are terrible healers. I want the perverse incentive system turned around, because that's what I see the OP complaining about, and I totally agree.

[Grimoire-M]

I'd even understand it more if the lilies applied regen effects. Sure, the target might be healthy now, but a good ticking regen has wider windows of usefulness on a tank than a Cure 2 healbomb. It would still have the same terrible perverse incentive system, but you'd have more chances to get something out of it. Take Astro's cards as an example. They may be busywork. Their effects may be negligible. They may be bloated to hell and back. There's no reason for there to be six total cards other than a weird marriage of history and modern expansion flinging things at a wall to see what sticks. But -what- they reward you for doing is the right thing. What they encourage you to do is the right thing. You get to make choices about applying buffs to party members, and these buffs explicitly have "right" and "wrong" choices baked in, so you're rewarded for paying attention and being selective. You're not rewarded in a way that's noticeable or that feels good, but they're at least aiming you in the direction of wielding things in a skilled way before they shoot their underwhelming shot.

WHM's job gauge aims you at chadding your cohealer, timing your spells so their primary effects would be afterthoughts, blowing your resources whenever and rewarding you no matter how thoughtlessly you barf heals all over the place. Like a Sylphie. WHM's job gauge encourages you to play healers like a Sylphie. The people who are terrible healers. I want the perverse incentive system turned around, because that's what I see the OP complaining about, and I totally agree.

I generally agree, Semi. There’s only two really good fixes I see for the current system. One is to just say ‘fuck it GCD Assize’ and throw out Misery for reliable damage every Lily cast, killing the downtime issues. The other is to make the heals into bubbles similar to excog and confession. Pop the heal if you’re hit or when the effect expires, whichever comes first, which solves the overcap issue. Combined those still don’t solve the Sylphie problems, but you’ll only be rewarded for using them as healing cooldowns at the very least.

The problem is Solace doesn’t work well in that specific scenario. My rework attempted a similar single target heal and it still got weird trying to solve the targeting problems.

[WhiteFlow]

Wish they just took the WHM pvp kit over to pve (the old one and maybe some new parts of the new like serap strike?) and increased the raid dmg desgin overall. In pvp i had the best feeling about healers but in pve is completely opposite.

Overall it was the "simplest" band aid they could give. While i understand that the lower lvl version of whm had his issues with mp, why adjusting the dmg of older skills? This is why smn got broken in all older content and just faceroll it. Now WHM follow this part with 1,2k lvl 80 hitting skill in TEA. Giving a upgrade at lvl 82 or 86 was to much? Nice

[Akava]

While I agree wholeheartedly that the current state of WHM (and healers in general) is on the boring side, I do want to say I'm happy with the changes from 6.1. Its not just that Misery being dps neutral makes sense from a balancing point of view, its that it gives us GCDs to press that aren't freaking Glare. I'm looking at my logs from Endsinger last night and I have 17 Raptures, 2 Solaces and 6 Miseries. Comparing that to a Zodiark pull with a similar, I only had 6 Raptures and two Miseries and I'm pretty sure those were all pressed during downtime.

I know some people feel like WHM needs more oGCD heals like the other healers and I did too. After 6.1 though, I'm being reminded that what we really need is just more diversity between healers and different buttons to press.

[ty_taurus]

While I agree wholeheartedly that the current state of WHM (and healers in general) is on the boring side, I do want to say I'm happy with the changes from 6.1. Its not just that Misery being dps neutral makes sense from a balancing point of view, its that it gives us GCDs to press that aren't freaking Glare. I'm looking at my logs from Endsinger last night and I have 17 Raptures, 2 Solaces and 6 Miseries. Comparing that to a Zodiark pull with a similar, I only had 6 Raptures and two Miseries and I'm pretty sure those were all pressed during downtime.

I know some people feel like WHM needs more oGCD heals like the other healers and I did too. After 6.1 though, I'm being reminded that what we really need is just more diversity between healers and different buttons to press.

That's something that I've been trying to say in lead up to 6.1 before we knew about the Misery change. WHM does need more to do and should have a clear advantage even if a relatively tame one, but it does not need an OGCD library like the other healers. That just continues to reinforce the homogenization we're trying to move away from, and low APM jobs can be fun and interesting. BLM is one of the most complex and interesting jobs in the game and it doesn't have too many OGCDs. It's constructed around rhythm, positioning, and decisive play around their rotation, and WHM could be the same.

[forumerror]

Stopped WHM'ing in dungeons at 50, when I put on worse gear to get better ilvl for a dungeon and got a lvl80 tank doing wall to wall pulls and dying in 3 seconds. Got reamed for not doing Holy spam. He was not friendly, so I ignored him and "gave up" on the run, he slowed down but we had like 10+ deaths and a wipe or two. After, looked up how WHM is expected to play, tried it in the next dungeon, absolutely hated the effect spam and never healed a dungeon/trial, or anything other than open world, ever again.

Just wasn't fun and the spell effect/sound just made it worse. Not enjoyable way to spend my time. I mainly heal for the serendipity of helping someone in the open world - you know, the place where MMOs are supposed to take place!! Instanced content was a technical solution to bad software/hardware, is not relevant in today's market, and needs to die already.

[ty_taurus]

Stopped WHM'ing in dungeons at 50, when I put on worse gear to get better ilvl for a dungeon and got a lvl80 tank doing wall to wall pulls and dying in 3 seconds. Got reamed for not doing Holy spam. He was not friendly, so I ignored him and "gave up" on the run, he slowed down but we had like 10+ deaths and a wipe or two. After, looked up how WHM is expected to play, tried it in the next dungeon, absolutely hated the effect spam and never healed a dungeon/trial, or anything other than open world, ever again.

Just wasn't fun and the spell effect/sound just made it worse. Not enjoyable way to spend my time. I mainly heal for the serendipity of helping someone in the open world - you know, the place where MMOs are supposed to take place!! Instanced content was a technical solution to bad software/hardware, is not relevant in today's market, and needs to die already.

I don't really understand what you mean by "put on worse gear to get better ilvl" I mean technically at max level certain stats are worse for specific jobs and so gear 10 ilvls lower can be better for a job than specific pieces of gear, but that shouldn't be an issue at level 50, so I don't really understand what's happening there.

Yes, WHM gameplay as well as all healer gameplay is largely DPSing while weaving healing when necessary, only stopping to heal on the GCD during downtime or when your other options are exhausted. In casual content, I don't even cast healing spells at all. That said, WHM can actually start prioritizing specific heals on their GCD once you hit level 74 (yes it takes that long to get to the "selling point" of the job) and get Afflatus Misery, because then you can heal and get reimbursed for your lost DPS. In that regard, WHM is the best option for players looking for someone who can stop to heal more frequently without losing performance, though you do want to try and manipulate your lily usage to ensure you have Misery during burst windows or after downtime, but that's the difference between moderate-high performance and high performance WHM gameplay.

I'd have to disagree with you on the open world aspect. That's a style of MMOs, but instanced content is not inherently worse nor better. It depends largely on the game, and if it's not the type of gameplay you enjoy then this isn't the MMO for you. It's not going to die anytime soon, though, that's for certain.

[CrimsonGunner]

sorry but am i the only one seeing 6.1 whm changes as the actual changes that needed to be done at 6.0 or at 6.01? ( i am seriously asking, cause im having trouble accepting them).

i mean misery potency changes could have arrived at 6.01 when they fixed other jobs potencies or even before that if they actually looked at healers and made potencies adjustments.
liturgy bad implementation besides(not being triggered from a party member) but if it was automated why wasn't a manual trigger implemented in 6.0 like ast skills does was made for bell?

those QoL might be a small step in the right direction but no offense they needed to be done way sooner and probably if proper Q&A was done to the healer role maybe even dealt with and never seen the light of day even.