Job action combos one button

[Shurrikhan]

None of this makes sense to me. The fact you can't play bard is unrelated to the fact its filler is only one button, you just don't pay enough attention to procs, but you wouldn't pay more if you had 3 buttons to press instead. I... Don't know if you're seriously thinking that "having more things to think about makes it easier to think about even more things".

No, that one can make sense. If your moment-to-moment decision-making is barren to the point of painful tedium, it can be that much harder to make ready for the infrequent, larger points of decision.

I don't see how a rigid combo (i.e., any that takes up more buttons than it has actual available decisions) would provide moment-to-moment decision making, but it can at the least help one keep track of what GCD one is one, especially so long as the pull and one's rotation is consistent. If X mechanic always happens on/with Y (GCD) button-press, such helps with subconscious tracking of the fight. I wouldn't force that bloat upon others or reduce actual available kit complexity for so little, but it's something.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

it can at the least help one keep track of what GCD one is one, especially so long as the pull and one's rotation is consistent. If X mechanic always happens on/with Y (GCD) button-press, such helps with subconscious tracking of the fight. I wouldn't force that bloat upon others or reduce actual available kit complexity for so little, but it's something.

I can picture that, explained that way, yes. But those muscle memory trackings are irrelevant to what Jijifli said about procs. For classes that are borderline random (DNC and BRD mostly), procs are too random to help with that, and the only thing that help is focus. And that focus is, I think, more disturbed the more buttons you have to press. Maybe it can help and that's just not how my mind works but anyway, nobody's asking to have mandatory concatenated combos, I'm just advocating for the option to, so... why would anyone cry against that ?

And as you say, it's a matter of available decisions, and therefore, MNK can't be concatenated since every skill theoretically allows a choice. But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.

Healer's word: pressing 1-2-3 is much more fun than 1-1-1.

It is indeed difficult to explain, because there is nothing complicated about a 1-2-3 combo. But it still adds a variety that you don't realize until it's gone.

I've seen a few comments come through complaining about their current lack of a button. Are you sure you've optimized your bars and shortcuts properly? On most jobs, I still have a few empty slots.

I play healers for roulettes, and I can see where that's coming from, but I always felt like it came from the lack of oGCD damage spells. For example, if I had concatenated combos on my Reaper, I would still have my burst to keep me awake. Keeping an eye on my gauges, counting how many GCDs I need to do before doing other things, etc. Maybe you're right, and if I played reaper with concatenated combos, it would be a bore. But I'd still fight for the option to have it for people that want to use it.

As for button bloats, while I don't suffer personnally from this, tanks have pretty much three full bars of skills and CDs. Of course you can optimize to have more easily accessible buttons bound, but let's be honest, why would you refuse people that struggle with button bloat an option to have less bloating ?

[Shurrikhan]

I can picture that, explained that way, yes. But those muscle memory trackings are irrelevant to what Jijifli said about procs. For classes that are borderline random (DNC and BRD mostly), procs are too random to help with that, and the only thing that help is focus. And that focus is, I think, more disturbed the more buttons you have to press. Maybe it can help and that's just not how my mind works but anyway, nobody's asking to have mandatory concatenated combos, I'm just advocating for the option to, so... why would anyone cry against that ?

Sorry, I should probably have started from that exact example. Again, for me procs don't make much of a difference unless I can meaningfully bank them -- short of that, they actually make things more mind-numbing for me. Heck, when they're literally locked out until the proc, one can just key-swipe / button-slide (2->1 for Refulgent if available, Burst if not; Reverse Cascade if procced, Cascade otherwise; etc.), so there's no need to even have the procs on one's screen.

But, for some... maybe. Maybe they're on a controller and don't claw-grip and therefore key-sliding isn't as practical and "hit button when flashing" is enough to give them their kicks, which in turn gets them thinking about their next Standard Step. I don't know. That certainly doesn't match my experience, but so long as there is some degree of bankability such that the separate buttons are actually doing something, I don't see it as a waste. Inefficient, sure --such that I'd prefer more involved mechanics around them-- but not pure bloat.

I just don't find rigid combos to have any such redeeming feature and would prefer they therefore be redesigned to offer some reason for needing separate buttons (a la Monk) or the option be given to consolidate them and, if it came down to either job depth from making use of the buttons saved for smaller total button counts for those who want every action to have its own button, that we favor depth over pretense.

Now, one may point out that so long as the future of job kits would depend on that consolidation, and those who don't use that option to consolidate as reasonable might therefore end up with an uncomfortable amount of buttons, then the player choice to consolidate wouldn't really be an "option". And that's true. Eventually, maybe, consolidating or not would be only nebulously a "choice", favoring ease of button-presses on one hand and subconscious ease of tracking timing on the other. But that's still a whole lot more choice than is allowed to console (or mod-less) players presently.

But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.

3 or 4. You'd still want to give the option for multi-DoTing via back-to-back CT combos, or to overextend towards a further Full Thrust combo in finishing off an enemy. And of course the AoE combo would be its own button. Though, that'd still save 60% to 70% of the button count required for DRG's combos (10 keys total). Add to that Jump -> Mirage Dive (though you'll likely want a player-choseable safety period, for those of us who button-mash), and you should have some very comfortable palettes (sets of 4 keys) on controller.

That "or 4" is just a question of whether you want to be able to cancel your Wheeling/Fang steps in favor of another combo, which is basically never viable once you get Lance Mastery II, even if Life Surge is coming back up, since the +100 potency 5th step more than makes up Life Surge being used on it instead of Full Thrust if it must be.

If the options were left to us, I'd just use 3 buttons. Chaos+2, Full+2, AoE. (Piercing Talon not here accounted for, but obviously its own button as well, especially now that it no longer breaks combos.)

___________________

Some final food for thought:

True customization would allow us a bit of QoL even if these buttons (e.g., Refulgent Arrow, which will currently always be used over Burst Shot) were given reason to exist separately. For instance, one might have a key use Refulgent over Burst Shot if available, or Bootshine over Dragon Kick if Leaden Fist is up, without sacrificing the ability to deliberately Burst Shot despite having a proc or deliberate Bootshine even without Leaden Fist. As such, players who'd prefer to split their buttons to "conserve resource" vs. "burn resources" or "prioritize sustain" vs. "prioritize burst" could do so, as may make more sense to them.

I certainly expect that to some players those procs and how they shuffle which button we ought to press for what general decision (that is, again, until we just key-swipe to the same effect as the aforementioned Refulgent-over-Burst, etc.), is compelling gameplay (yet only compelling enough to follow if everyone is likewise forced to), so I doubt that would ever get anywhere, but that is just another avenue that such changes could go down, if we had interest.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

3 or 4. You'd still want to give the option for multi-DoTing via back-to-back CT combos, or to overextend towards a further Full Thrust combo in finishing off an enemy. And of course the AoE combo would be its own button. Though, that'd still 60 to 70% of the button count required for DRG's combos (10 keys total).

Sure, but you get the idea ! I hadn't given much thought to this, so maybe I didn't chose the best example.

Now, one may point out that so long as the future of job kits would depend on that consolidation, and those who don't use that option to consolidate as reasonable might therefore end up with an uncomfortable amount of buttons, then the player choice to consolidate wouldn't really be an "option". And that's true. Eventually, maybe, consolidating or not would be only nebulously a "choice", favoring ease of button-presses on one hand and subconscious ease of tracking timing on the other. But that's still a whole lot more choice than is allowed to console (or mod-less) players presently.

That's a big if, but I dont think SE would build a job on an optional QoL change. As Jijifli mentioned earlier, Yoshida plays on a controller to ensure the game is playable that way, so I guess if they were to add that option, he wouldn't use it.

[Mikey_R]

And as you say, it's a matter of available decisions, and therefore, MNK can't be concatenated since every skill theoretically allows a choice. But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.

I play healers for roulettes, and I can see where that's coming from, but I always felt like it came from the lack of oGCD damage spells. For example, if I had concatenated combos on my Reaper, I would still have my burst to keep me awake. Keeping an eye on my gauges, counting how many GCDs I need to do before doing other things, etc. Maybe you're right, and if I played reaper with concatenated combos, it would be a bore. But I'd still fight for the option to have it for people that want to use it.

There is a difference between Dragoon and Reaper combos and gameplay in general that I would like to address and that is knowing where you are in your combo. Imagine if everything was consolidated, you had the one button combo. Could you honestly say that, during moments of heavy mechanics, you could keep track of where you were? If I were to black out the screen at any point and ask, what is your next combo action, do you think you could do it? I could probably make a very good guess that you would not be able to as, it is just a button you press, it goes through the motions automatically. I specifically say mechanic heavy parts as well in an attempt to highlight that, in those parts, most people wouldn't necessarily be looking at their character and their actions, so you couldn't use that as an indicator.

Now, to bring Reaper/Dragoon back into this, for Reaper, this is not a problem. It doesn't actually matter where you are in the combo, all they do is damage and give 10 Soul Gauge. You inherently do not care where you are. However, for Dragoon, that is not the case. You do care where you are as you have positionals, s getting to the right spot is important, you also have to keep track of when you are going to get your Firstmind's Focus for Wyrmwind Thrust. Since these things do not happen the same on every GCD, you suddenly need to keep track of where you are in the combo and for most, having things on separate buttons helps with that.

I will also say that if they add the option in, I do not care however, I do want to get the point across that it is not a simple case of, this is a combo, therefore make them one button.

However, whilst I am on this topic, giving the option could also lead to problems. Some consolidate, some do not, the ones that do consolidate suddenly say, 'my bars are empty, add more as we have the space', whereas the ones that do not say it is fine. Is there going to be pressure from one side to force the game into a particular option? If the option was there, I do not see the devs bending to cater to one side or the other, however, the possibility is still there.

I also made a post in this topic asking what could you actually do? If you were to add a new combo, that is 1 extra button used up, but you also have to consider, how is this going to affect the job? Can you honestly say Dragoon has space for another combo? oGCDs are a thing right? more of those. Bear in mind, as a general statement, people do not like oGCDs that just do damage, ideally it should do damage and something else, plus, add too many in and suddenly you cannot fit it all into the burst window, which is going to feel bad to play. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it is not just a simple case of 'just add X and Y' when adding X and Y could result in potentially having to rework the job.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

There is a difference between Dragoon and Reaper combos and gameplay in general that I would like to address and that is knowing where you are in your combo. Imagine if everything was consolidated, you had the one button combo. Could you honestly say that, during moments of heavy mechanics, you could keep track of where you were? If I were to black out the screen at any point and ask, what is your next combo action, do you think you could do it? I could probably make a very good guess that you would not be able to as, it is just a button you press, it goes through the motions automatically. I specifically say mechanic heavy parts as well in an attempt to highlight that, in those parts, most people wouldn't necessarily be looking at their character and their actions, so you couldn't use that as an indicator.

Now, to bring Reaper/Dragoon back into this, for Reaper, this is not a problem. It doesn't actually matter where you are in the combo, all they do is damage and give 10 Soul Gauge. You inherently do not care where you are. However, for Dragoon, that is not the case. You do care where you are as you have positionals, s getting to the right spot is important, you also have to keep track of when you are going to get your Firstmind's Focus for Wyrmwind Thrust. Since these things do not happen the same on every GCD, you suddenly need to keep track of where you are in the combo and for most, having things on separate buttons helps with that.

I will also say that if they add the option in, I do not care however, I do want to get the point across that it is not a simple case of, this is a combo, therefore make them one button.

However, whilst I am on this topic, giving the option could also lead to problems. Some consolidate, some do not, the ones that do consolidate suddenly say, 'my bars are empty, add more as we have the space', whereas the ones that do not say it is fine. Is there going to be pressure from one side to force the game into a particular option? If the option was there, I do not see the devs bending to cater to one side or the other, however, the possibility is still there.

I also made a post in this topic asking what could you actually do? If you were to add a new combo, that is 1 extra button used up, but you also have to consider, how is this going to affect the job? Can you honestly say Dragoon has space for another combo? oGCDs are a thing right? more of those. Bear in mind, as a general statement, people do not like oGCDs that just do damage, ideally it should do damage and something else, plus, add too many in and suddenly you cannot fit it all into the burst window, which is going to feel bad to play. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it is not just a simple case of 'just add X and Y' when adding X and Y could result in potentially having to rework the job.

tbh I couldn't see your point in the first paragraph, but the next one made it clear, and yes, positionals sure are an issue, in that setup. The rest of the post was adressed in my earlier post, and is basically "They'll most likely adjust to the "standard" (as in "no concatenated") option and tell people to deconcatenate if they want more buttons", but that point is pretty good.



I do think, though, it's just a different exercise. Instead of going "My middle finger is pressing that key, I should move to the sides before pressing that other key" (that's subconscious, of course, but you get the idea", you go "1, 2, move to the side, 3". Therefore, it's a question between what you're the most comfortable with, muscle memory heavy inputs (classic) or count and keep track inputs (concatenated). None of these are perfect options, but both are legit way of playing, I think. Maybe it's an oversimplification and it would be unplayable in mechanics heavy moments, but I know this would be much easier to me than to press T while looking in that direction to see what comes next, then E and running that way at the same time, or whatever, to just press E two times, counting where I am in my combo and processing the mechanics at the same time.

Different people think in different way, and it's only fair to give those people options to accomodate, I think.

[Merrigan]

I can picture that, explained that way, yes. But those muscle memory trackings are irrelevant to what Jijifli said about procs. For classes that are borderline random (DNC and BRD mostly), procs are too random to help with that, and the only thing that help is focus. And that focus is, I think, more disturbed the more buttons you have to press. Maybe it can help and that's just not how my mind works but anyway, nobody's asking to have mandatory concatenated combos, I'm just advocating for the option to, so... why would anyone cry against that ?

And as you say, it's a matter of available decisions, and therefore, MNK can't be concatenated since every skill theoretically allows a choice. But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.



I play healers for roulettes, and I can see where that's coming from, but I always felt like it came from the lack of oGCD damage spells. For example, if I had concatenated combos on my Reaper, I would still have my burst to keep me awake. Keeping an eye on my gauges, counting how many GCDs I need to do before doing other things, etc. Maybe you're right, and if I played reaper with concatenated combos, it would be a bore. But I'd still fight for the option to have it for people that want to use it.

As for button bloats, while I don't suffer personnally from this, tanks have pretty much three full bars of skills and CDs. Of course you can optimize to have more easily accessible buttons bound, but let's be honest, why would you refuse people that struggle with button bloat an option to have less bloating ?

You're partly right - but it would take a lot more GCD than the game has to offer to break the monotony of 1-1-1, even on classes that are rather spoiled in that respect.

As for the rest, I think you're making a mistake when you say "option". It is very likely that, for technical reasons or lack of time, the developers impose this choice. That's why people are protesting against this idea, because it will certainly not be possible to go back once it's IG.

Yes, in an ideal world the option would be available. In an ideal world, we would also have an infinite story, twice as much endgame available, zones that are not separated by loading times, a graphical update that would come right away with ten times as many customization options... And so on.

Personally, I'd prefer them to merge some of the redundant techniques to make room for the new ones (I'm hoping for more utility tools, especially with the new dungeon format coming). And at the risk of repeating myself: before deleting anything, maybe it would be a good idea for those who don't have any space left to think about optimizing their shortcuts. Because in some of the comments, people are complaining without understanding the importance of having a custom interface.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

You're partly right - but it would take a lot more GCD than the game has to offer to break the monotony of 1-1-1, even on classes that are rather spoiled in that respect.

I guess that's up to personal taste, so there's not much room for debate here, especially since neither of us have got to try it.

As for the rest, I think you're making a mistake when you say "option". It is very likely that, for technical reasons or lack of time, the developers impose this choice. That's why people are protesting against this idea, because it will certainly not be possible to go back once it's IG.

Well someone said earlier that there are ways to have it in game actually (third party), so I asked around for more information about that.

In that plugin, each different concatenated combo can be checked or not. So say you're playing SAM and want to concatenate your flower mono combo (I'll be damned if I remember one SAM skill name ever.) but nothing else, you can. As far as I know and that I can reverse engineer it, it's just a detection of whether you got an invisible buff that represents the combo, and a skill replacement in the action bar. Basically, a better macro. That's a very easy and approachable way to develop it, and while it may have some issues (packet loss maybe ?) it's a pretty good start.

Especially, since it's that simple, you can have it as an option in a separate menu or whatever.