Job action combos one button

[Momo_Kozuki]

Don't really see why it shouldn't be a thing.


Brainless 1-2-3 basic combo vs brainless single button spam for a 3-combo attack, they are basically the same, but the latter save you two slots and potentially more depending on classes, like Dragoon has a lot of combo buttons.



Not all classes need this though. Monk, for example, have unique combo system where their attacks are interchange-able, so it would be better to keep their combo button seperately.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

3 or 4. You'd still want to give the option for multi-DoTing via back-to-back CT combos, or to overextend towards a further Full Thrust combo in finishing off an enemy. And of course the AoE combo would be its own button. Though, that'd still 60 to 70% of the button count required for DRG's combos (10 keys total).

Sure, but you get the idea ! I hadn't given much thought to this, so maybe I didn't chose the best example.

Now, one may point out that so long as the future of job kits would depend on that consolidation, and those who don't use that option to consolidate as reasonable might therefore end up with an uncomfortable amount of buttons, then the player choice to consolidate wouldn't really be an "option". And that's true. Eventually, maybe, consolidating or not would be only nebulously a "choice", favoring ease of button-presses on one hand and subconscious ease of tracking timing on the other. But that's still a whole lot more choice than is allowed to console (or mod-less) players presently.

That's a big if, but I dont think SE would build a job on an optional QoL change. As Jijifli mentioned earlier, Yoshida plays on a controller to ensure the game is playable that way, so I guess if they were to add that option, he wouldn't use it.

[Mikey_R]

And as you say, it's a matter of available decisions, and therefore, MNK can't be concatenated since every skill theoretically allows a choice. But DRG, on the other hand, can have its 5 GCD combo (or 10, if we want to go that far) reduced from 7 buttons to 1, and that's a lot against bloating.

I play healers for roulettes, and I can see where that's coming from, but I always felt like it came from the lack of oGCD damage spells. For example, if I had concatenated combos on my Reaper, I would still have my burst to keep me awake. Keeping an eye on my gauges, counting how many GCDs I need to do before doing other things, etc. Maybe you're right, and if I played reaper with concatenated combos, it would be a bore. But I'd still fight for the option to have it for people that want to use it.

There is a difference between Dragoon and Reaper combos and gameplay in general that I would like to address and that is knowing where you are in your combo. Imagine if everything was consolidated, you had the one button combo. Could you honestly say that, during moments of heavy mechanics, you could keep track of where you were? If I were to black out the screen at any point and ask, what is your next combo action, do you think you could do it? I could probably make a very good guess that you would not be able to as, it is just a button you press, it goes through the motions automatically. I specifically say mechanic heavy parts as well in an attempt to highlight that, in those parts, most people wouldn't necessarily be looking at their character and their actions, so you couldn't use that as an indicator.

Now, to bring Reaper/Dragoon back into this, for Reaper, this is not a problem. It doesn't actually matter where you are in the combo, all they do is damage and give 10 Soul Gauge. You inherently do not care where you are. However, for Dragoon, that is not the case. You do care where you are as you have positionals, s getting to the right spot is important, you also have to keep track of when you are going to get your Firstmind's Focus for Wyrmwind Thrust. Since these things do not happen the same on every GCD, you suddenly need to keep track of where you are in the combo and for most, having things on separate buttons helps with that.

I will also say that if they add the option in, I do not care however, I do want to get the point across that it is not a simple case of, this is a combo, therefore make them one button.

However, whilst I am on this topic, giving the option could also lead to problems. Some consolidate, some do not, the ones that do consolidate suddenly say, 'my bars are empty, add more as we have the space', whereas the ones that do not say it is fine. Is there going to be pressure from one side to force the game into a particular option? If the option was there, I do not see the devs bending to cater to one side or the other, however, the possibility is still there.

I also made a post in this topic asking what could you actually do? If you were to add a new combo, that is 1 extra button used up, but you also have to consider, how is this going to affect the job? Can you honestly say Dragoon has space for another combo? oGCDs are a thing right? more of those. Bear in mind, as a general statement, people do not like oGCDs that just do damage, ideally it should do damage and something else, plus, add too many in and suddenly you cannot fit it all into the burst window, which is going to feel bad to play. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it is not just a simple case of 'just add X and Y' when adding X and Y could result in potentially having to rework the job.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

There is a difference between Dragoon and Reaper combos and gameplay in general that I would like to address and that is knowing where you are in your combo. Imagine if everything was consolidated, you had the one button combo. Could you honestly say that, during moments of heavy mechanics, you could keep track of where you were? If I were to black out the screen at any point and ask, what is your next combo action, do you think you could do it? I could probably make a very good guess that you would not be able to as, it is just a button you press, it goes through the motions automatically. I specifically say mechanic heavy parts as well in an attempt to highlight that, in those parts, most people wouldn't necessarily be looking at their character and their actions, so you couldn't use that as an indicator.

Now, to bring Reaper/Dragoon back into this, for Reaper, this is not a problem. It doesn't actually matter where you are in the combo, all they do is damage and give 10 Soul Gauge. You inherently do not care where you are. However, for Dragoon, that is not the case. You do care where you are as you have positionals, s getting to the right spot is important, you also have to keep track of when you are going to get your Firstmind's Focus for Wyrmwind Thrust. Since these things do not happen the same on every GCD, you suddenly need to keep track of where you are in the combo and for most, having things on separate buttons helps with that.

I will also say that if they add the option in, I do not care however, I do want to get the point across that it is not a simple case of, this is a combo, therefore make them one button.

However, whilst I am on this topic, giving the option could also lead to problems. Some consolidate, some do not, the ones that do consolidate suddenly say, 'my bars are empty, add more as we have the space', whereas the ones that do not say it is fine. Is there going to be pressure from one side to force the game into a particular option? If the option was there, I do not see the devs bending to cater to one side or the other, however, the possibility is still there.

I also made a post in this topic asking what could you actually do? If you were to add a new combo, that is 1 extra button used up, but you also have to consider, how is this going to affect the job? Can you honestly say Dragoon has space for another combo? oGCDs are a thing right? more of those. Bear in mind, as a general statement, people do not like oGCDs that just do damage, ideally it should do damage and something else, plus, add too many in and suddenly you cannot fit it all into the burst window, which is going to feel bad to play. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it is not just a simple case of 'just add X and Y' when adding X and Y could result in potentially having to rework the job.

tbh I couldn't see your point in the first paragraph, but the next one made it clear, and yes, positionals sure are an issue, in that setup. The rest of the post was adressed in my earlier post, and is basically "They'll most likely adjust to the "standard" (as in "no concatenated") option and tell people to deconcatenate if they want more buttons", but that point is pretty good.



I do think, though, it's just a different exercise. Instead of going "My middle finger is pressing that key, I should move to the sides before pressing that other key" (that's subconscious, of course, but you get the idea", you go "1, 2, move to the side, 3". Therefore, it's a question between what you're the most comfortable with, muscle memory heavy inputs (classic) or count and keep track inputs (concatenated). None of these are perfect options, but both are legit way of playing, I think. Maybe it's an oversimplification and it would be unplayable in mechanics heavy moments, but I know this would be much easier to me than to press T while looking in that direction to see what comes next, then E and running that way at the same time, or whatever, to just press E two times, counting where I am in my combo and processing the mechanics at the same time.

Different people think in different way, and it's only fair to give those people options to accomodate, I think.

[ASkellington]

I don't want it for the same reason I didn't want Continuation to be 1 button - muscle memory.

Otherwise, as long as it doesn't break the job, sure w/e Idc.

[Absurdity]

I don't want it for the same reason I didn't want Continuation to be 1 button - muscle memory.

Otherwise, as long as it doesn't break the job, sure w/e Idc.

This. Especially with every No Mercy window starting on a different GCD having your 1-2-3 on separate buttons helps keep track of where you are in your combo and when you need to start your burst.

It's fine if that becomes an optional UI setting but if you force 1-1-1 on every player you need to fix your jobs that rely on starting their burst on specific GCDs.

[Jijifli]

None of this makes sense to me. The fact you can't play bard is unrelated to the fact its filler is only one button, you just don't pay enough attention to procs, but you wouldn't pay more if you had 3 buttons to press instead. I... Don't know if you're seriously thinking that "having more things to think about makes it easier to think about even more things".

If you have another explanation on how I have no issue with dealing with procs on any other job in the game, which also included HW DRG when the 4th combo button was a proc for either one or the other and it was rng on top of having to still land that proc's positional, while I can't manage it on BRD, I'd like to hear it. Really.

Sure, transforming three buttons into one doesn't reduce button bloat, better remove some skills that give some personality and possibilities to the job and that couldn't be condensated into one another to have more complexity and class identity. Surely you can't be serious.

The argument was "bloat bad" no? So suddenly you don't want to lose things? But we can ignore the fact that pushing them down into 1 button already breaks MNK without deleting what makes it unique, and takes away one of DRG's unique factors of having a longer combo line, since you won't even notice the thing if it's just a single key.

There is no snow, but your mind sure is frozen.

But by all means, stop answering to that pitiful buffoon that insults you while you can't make a proper argument that actually makes sense. Surely you can use that as an exit door for losing that argument.

See, that's a little closer. But, sadly, there is snow where I am. And I'm due for more tomorrow actually. I guess I'm sorry that I might live more northern than you and have more snow, but where I'm from, it's not unheard of for snow to last here until may.

But, I would like to know how my argument doesn't make sense. It's not like I've given every single job an honest try, and figured out where the things I'm good at are, and where I struggle. And BRD in paticular, you know, the job with a 1 button thing everyone wants, mysteriously has me struggling to catch its procs while any other job with more than one I'm fine with. Funny enough, healers suffer the same problem for me, I can't properly track my dot because it feels like I'm just pressing 1. And for whatever reason, WHM heavily suffers the most from it and I legit begin falling asleep when I play it, and I feel bad for any DF group that had to put up with me on WHM (Which wasn't a lot, since I trusted it knowing I'd just snooze)

[Ransu]

I would literally quit the game if they brought over the 1 button nonsense from pvp.

[Rowde]

My ideal scenario would be if they made it optional
Put the combo version of the button into the Actions List, and players have the choice of whether to add it to hotbar OR use the individual actions instead.

[Shurrikhan]

There is a difference between Dragoon and Reaper combos and gameplay in general that I would like to address and that is knowing where you are in your combo. Imagine if everything was consolidated, you had the one button combo. Could you honestly say that, during moments of heavy mechanics, you could keep track of where you were?

In my case, yes, definitely. It takes a fight or three to get used to, but I need only either to have positionals on the job (basically, anything but Reaper) or my SFX turned on. Either is sufficient.

I played around with key-swap macros to test out exactly that and never felt remotely lost as to what positional was coming up or when. The only real (and still brief) sticking point was remembering when a mechanic would be coming out for, say, a pre-pop Veil, TBN, or Third Eye, since that used to occur on a certain button-press.

The learning curve is shallow and short. It very, very quickly doesn't matter which button you just pressed and instead which action you just used, for which there are cues beyond mere button-press. Just as I don't need a separate button to tell me that, via Between the Lines, I'll be teleported to my Ley Lines when I've already hit Ley Lines (button-swapping one over the other), I don't need a separate button to tell me that if I just heard Disembowel go off, my next two GCDs are rear attacks followed by a flank.

It doesn't take additional buttons to remember that you merely alternate between Double-rear Split-flank, and the SFX of Vorpal, Full/Heaven's, and Disembowel are plenty to remind one to Life Surge or move if not pre-positioned.

However, whilst I am on this topic, giving the option could also lead to problems. Some consolidate, some do not, the ones that do consolidate suddenly say, 'my bars are empty, add more as we have the space', whereas the ones that do not say it is fine. Is there going to be pressure from one side to force the game into a particular option? If the option was there, I do not see the devs bending to cater to one side or the other, however, the possibility is still there.

This seems the larger concern to me, though I do think there are precedents that disarm it, as I'll get into in a moment. It essentially boils down to (A) many wanting jobs not to have further depth and/or (B) that the devs won't necessarily fill that space with anything... better. The last thing Dragoon would want, for instance, is yet another Dragon Sight or unbankable "just damage" oGCD.

Alternatively, it could be seen as homogenizing (in terms of difficulty and modes of complexity) if jobs that previously devoted a large degree of button-space to non-complexity then added complexity in its place. We could say, for instance, that the mindless rigid combo backbone of Dragoon is what really gives it room to think about banking oGCDs like Mirage Dive and Stardiver (not that there's much thinking to be done at this point, under modern CD alignments). And that all therefore becomes a much larger can of worms.

I don't think it's a particular threat, though. So long as Yoshida lays out that the change is a QoL option, and will only ever be a QoL option, and those who want more buttons from those jobs are free to just not use that feature, then that's pretty much the end of it. The threat is more in any ambiguity about future design, if left hanging, than inherent to offering that choice. Resolve that ambiguity, and there's no such issue.