When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[KariTheFox]

They didn’t die to the final days. They died to the sundering. Is this really so hard to understand? They survived the final days itself. Idk why the person above is saying only 3 survived. We know a not insignificant amount of ancients survived the final days itself. It’s the sundering that rendered them extinct. The “life” you claim to care so much about was ftmp, soulless. If you’re going to apply that logic, then by all means, you must agree that it is incredibly unethical for the wol and the sundered to create primals or familiars or constructs only to have them be killed, used as entertainment(colosseum), or worse. They succeeded in the trial itself. My point anyways was the original person was saying they deserved to be erased because they failed the test. That’s not true. Secondly let’s not act like all of the sundered succeeded. It was because of 7-8 people with the help of the ancients that they were even able to succeed. Most of the normal sundered gave in incredibly quickly to despair. Imagine if the WoL who is what, 8 times rejoined? Hadn’t been there. They’d be completely demolished.

Maybe it is unethical for the WoL to create beings like the primals for thier own ends. I'm not sure. When I say something "raises a question" that does not mean I'm necessarily advocating for that position, but that the text itself is asking us to think about it.

As for the test, in my view the sundering is an event that is caused by the final days - as are the rejoinings. From a dispassionate, scientific standpoint, the sundering and rejoinings represent two different attempts to perserve mankind, the ascians tried for 12000 years to do it thier way and ultimately failed.

And yes, Venat is cheating and messing up the scientific accuracy of the test by retaining her memories and putting a tracker on Meteion, but we all already agreed that the test was unethical so that's fine.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Maybe it is unethical for the WoL to create beings like the primals for thier own ends. I'm not sure. When I say something "raises a question" that does not mean I'm necessarily advocating for that position, but that the text itself is asking us to think about it.

As for the test, in my view the sundering is an event that is caused by the final days - as are the rejoinings. From a dispassionate, scientific standpoint, the sundering and rejoinings represent two different attempts to perserve mankind, the ascians tried for 12000 years to do it thier way and ultimately failed.

And yes, Venat is cheating and messing up the scientific accuracy of the test by retaining her memories and putting a tracker on Meteion, but we all already agreed that the test was unethical so that's fine.

If i hand out a test to 1 million people to gauge their worth and only 8 actually pass the test...idk about you but i would take it that whatever people im testing arent worthy of whatever lol. Those 8 would be classified as simply outliers. My point is though, we now have people saying that the ancients deserved what they got for doing this "testing" on creations and for getting rid of the ones that didnt make the cut. If this is the case then the sundered should be held to the same standard because they do the same thing everyday.The test being unethical doesnt reallt warrant the cheating though, as it gives an incredible advantage to one side that the other didnt have. The test would be marked as inconclusive if we're basing it off the way irl things work.

[KariTheFox]

If i hand out a test to 1 million people to gauge their worth and only 8 actually pass the test...idk about you but i would take it that whatever people im testing arent worthy of whatever lol. Those 8 would be classified as simply outliers. My point is though, we now have people saying that the ancients deserved what they got for doing this "testing" on creations and for getting rid of the ones that didnt make the cut. If this is the case then the sundered should be held to the same standard because they do the same thing everyday.The test being unethical doesnt reallt warrant the cheating though, as it gives an incredible advantage to one side that the other didnt have. The test would be marked as inconclusive if we're basing it off the way irl things work.

I'm not really discussing the test's validity as a science, or the fairness of it. I'm more talking about Hermes's motivation and reasoning behind it.

In the midst of a despair induced mental breakdown, Hermes decides to subject mankind to the same kind of testing that the creations of Elpis are subject to. If they fail to weather the final days and the coming disasters, then they are not fit to live on the star. In the same way a creation that is unsuited for its enviroment is unfit to live on the star. This is what Hermes (not me) believes.

[tokinokanatae]

I think the reason saying, "the Ancients failed Hermes's test" is getting pushback is because of a lot of interconnected factors.

Zodiark as a solution is, frankly, a monument to the ingenuity of the Ancients. Everything we can infer about him from Endwalker tells us that if pure "survival of the species" was the metric for pass/fail, then he likely is a passing state. The rest of the universe might decay and die around Etheirys due to the song of Meteion--and heck, Zodiark might not be able to hold out against her forever--but they'd probably last for a really really really really really really really long time. After all, the "pass" state of Elpis isn't "can this species live forever and ever up to and including the heat death of the universe" or "can the test subject assert their ability to survive by (potentially) murdering the test giver" either.

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

[redheadturk]

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

[EaraGrace]

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

They at least held ceremonies/the equivalent of funeral rites for them. There’s innate cruelty in everything. Again, the eden primals, familiars, constructs that we summon in our everyday lives (in the game world). What’s your point with it exactly?At least they weren’t doing what Uldah did and having animals being slaughtered left and right purely for entertainment.

[redheadturk]

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

Were mistakes made? Yeah, maybe so, and there were quests that said outright that distractions could lead to mistakes in the creation process. It doesn't mean it was "for vanity", it means they were attempting to make a creature that was meant to be a predator for the purpose of population control and made a mistake during the creation, which lead to having to unmake the specimens to protect the rest of the species, and to protect them as well, because much less cruel to be unmade than to overpredate and end up starving.

[tokinokanatae]

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

Why assume malice on behalf of the creator? Even if they don't feel as strongly as Hermes does, there's no reason for them to have deliberately made the lykaons flawed in that particular way.

[Lauront]

I think the reason saying, "the Ancients failed Hermes's test" is getting pushback is because of a lot of interconnected factors.

Zodiark as a solution is, frankly, a monument to the ingenuity of the Ancients. Everything we can infer about him from Endwalker tells us that if pure "survival of the species" was the metric for pass/fail, then he likely is a passing state. The rest of the universe might decay and die around Etheirys due to the song of Meteion--and heck, Zodiark might not be able to hold out against her forever--but they'd probably last for a really really really really really really really long time. After all, the "pass" state of Elpis isn't "can this species live forever and ever up to and including the heat death of the universe" or "can the test subject assert their ability to survive by (potentially) murdering the test giver" either.

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

It depends - if you mean the "accept suffering" thing, you can take it as a moral element, but I'd say her rendition of the test is purely pragmatic, i.e. accept suffering and avoid the sacrifices to restore things as they were (for reasons I can't/won't tell you) to avoid us ultimately meeting our doom. Neither she nor Hermes incorporate any aspect of treating all life as equal into it, and indeed her plan would potentially be compromised if she began setting such limitations - in any case, if the test included any such component, it would be failed outright by the sundered. They don't even treat one another as equals, let alone all the other life on the star. I don't take his concerns with the creations particularly seriously for that reason. He's fine with using them as fodder when it suits him and dooming them along with everything else to Meteion's plan, which to me is sufficient to dismiss any pretence of him caring that greatly. Dealing with the creations in Elpis merely forces him to confront the actual source of his unease (implied to be a trait of his very soul) - death, and its implications (as he sees them) for any purpose held in life, hence the malformed question Meteion is tasked with answering. The test he is thrusting on mankind (and everything else) is plainly not the sort of tests they used to ensure the creations could be integrated into the broader star, which is why I consider it issued in bad faith/out of spite. This sort of cruelty endures in him as Fandaniel in the dying soldier scenario. Her rationale for answering the test is purely to address the fate that could eventually meet them, but needless to say I find her methods questionable and I am left unconvinced that this was the only way to address the issue. I agree that Zodiark is testament to their willpower and ingenuity and mankind has him to thank in large part for its continued existence.

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

And that is after they entertained multiple methods of re-evaluating their behaviour as-is. To me they're entities which don't differ much to Zenos.