When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[KariTheFox]

My reading of the 'test' that Hermes gave was that it wasn't meant to be the kind of test you are given to pass or fail - but a scientific test, the same kind as he gave the creations of Elpis before either destroying them or letting them become part of Ethyris's ecosystem.

In that kind of test, it's important that the subjects do not know they are being tested for the purposes of scientific accuracy. He's trying to apply the same principles to mankind that he applies to the creations in Elpis, he even says as much. With the parameters being if mankind can survive the Final Days, they deserve to live, if they can't, then they should be unmade like all other failed creations. (is it messed up to do that? absolutely. not trying to argue the validity of his test, just the nature of it)

[KizuyaKatogami]

My reading of the 'test' that Hermes gave was that it wasn't meant to be the kind of test you are given to pass or fail - but a scientific test, the same kind as he gave the creations of Elpis before either destroying them or letting them become part of Ethyris's ecosystem.

In that kind of test, it's important that the subjects do not know they are being tested for the purposes of scientific accuracy. He's trying to apply the same principles to mankind that he applies to the creations in Elpis, he even says as much. With the parameters being if mankind can survive the Final Days, they deserve to live, if they can't, then they should be unmade like all other failed creations. (is it messed up to do that? absolutely. not trying to argue the validity of his test, just the nature of it)

In that case then the ancients passed the test since they did survive the final days.

[Jandor]

In that case then the ancients passed the test since they did survive the final days.

Kinda like saying the dinosaurs survived the meteor, only to be killed off by completely unrelated dust clouds shortly after.

[Lyth]

...

It would be simplest if you went back and properly watched the lecture that you yourself linked for us. You're actually arguing against Sanderson's points, which he does an excellent job of explaining.

As a quick summary for those who haven't seen it, the audience needs to understand what the problem is, what the rules and restrictions are around solving it, and then the solution. You can solve problems with magic, but the audience needs to understand what the conditions are around its use for it to be a satisfying solution.

Deus Ex Machina sidesteps the primary conflict. If the story is 'I am hungry,' and the solution is 'I go to the nearby shop and buy some food', then there's never really was a conflict to begin with. I've introduced a plot element that trivializes the problem. But if I also add in the restrictions that 'I left my money at home and my phone is out of batteries,' now we have something to write a story around.

Sanderson argues that the misstep with Pelennor Fields was that there was no constraints around the ghosts' arrival. The instant that Aragorn recruited the ghosts earlier in the story, the good guys had a more powerful army. The ghosts could have showed up at the very start of the fight, killed all the bad guys, and then you wouldn't even have a battle to watch. Now if we added in the constraint that Aragorn needs to first perform a lengthy summoning ritual to bring them to the field during which time he needs to be protected, then you can create all sorts of dramatic tension around that. This leads into Sanderson's second principle in the lecture, that "Weaknesses are more interesting than powers."

You can absolutely have soft magic systems in which the magic remains mysterious. But you still need to outline what the limitations are of said magic as they apply to solving a particular problem. With the Ancients, creation magic is very much a soft system, and there's always a real danger of snapping your fingers to make your problems go away. Zodiark is very much an example of this. If there is no meaningful price to be paid or limitation attached to the wishes that He fulfills, then you're solving problems with Deus Ex Machina in the most literal sense. It's the cost imposed which actually makes the problem meaningful in the first place.

I think that if we're going to see more frequent demonstrations of Creation magic, we're also going to see a lot more restrictions introduced on its use.

[EaraGrace]

Kinda like saying the dinosaurs survived the meteor, only to be killed off by completely unrelated dust clouds shortly after.

It was the completely unrelated temperature changes I'll have you know.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Kinda like saying the dinosaurs survived the meteor, only to be killed off by completely unrelated dust clouds shortly after.

Really doesn’t matter. If it’s as clear cut as just surviving the final days, they did so. Or now are we going to start adding new invisible rules to his “test.” Lol in this case, we can argue it was only a select few sundered who actually overcame Meteion, the rest deserve to be erased i guess

[_Koneko_]

we don't know how 3 of them even survived in the first place and given the majority of their race died i hardly consider it surviving :P if 3 people survived the end of the world that's still extinction since 3 people cannot support a population and given that ascian is more a soul i'd say they all technically died :P

[redheadturk]

we don't know how 3 of them even survived in the first place and given the majority of their race died i hardly consider it surviving :P if 3 people survived the end of the world that's still extinction since 3 people cannot support a population and given that ascian is more a soul i'd say they all technically died :P

They survived the initial Final Days, and if Venat had not interfered would have survived after, so yeah, they passed. Not that I think that kind of testing on sentient beings is ethical anyway.

[Misutoraru]

we don't know how 3 of them even survived in the first place and given the majority of their race died i hardly consider it surviving :P if 3 people survived the end of the world that's still extinction since 3 people cannot support a population and given that ascian is more a soul i'd say they all technically died :P

I would consider when they first summon Zodiark to shield the star. It was already survived the “test”.

Meterion does not cause the “extinction” ancients. Sundering does, and one could argue Venat lose hope on her people cause the sundering.

[KariTheFox]

In that case then the ancients passed the test since they did survive the final days.

Well, no. The ancients are dead, so they failed. Mankind in thier post-sundered state are not dead, so they pass. This isn't about deserving to live or die in some ethical sense - it's a cold and dispassionate scientitifc trial. The kind Hermes was asked to conduct every day on the creations of Elpis.

And of course it's unethical to subject people to a test like that. Which does raise the question - was it also unthethical to create life and subject it to similar cold and dispassionate testing for its survival.