When are we supposed to stop fighting?

[tokinokanatae]

I think the reason saying, "the Ancients failed Hermes's test" is getting pushback is because of a lot of interconnected factors.

Zodiark as a solution is, frankly, a monument to the ingenuity of the Ancients. Everything we can infer about him from Endwalker tells us that if pure "survival of the species" was the metric for pass/fail, then he likely is a passing state. The rest of the universe might decay and die around Etheirys due to the song of Meteion--and heck, Zodiark might not be able to hold out against her forever--but they'd probably last for a really really really really really really really long time. After all, the "pass" state of Elpis isn't "can this species live forever and ever up to and including the heat death of the universe" or "can the test subject assert their ability to survive by (potentially) murdering the test giver" either.

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

[redheadturk]

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

[EaraGrace]

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

They at least held ceremonies/the equivalent of funeral rites for them. There’s innate cruelty in everything. Again, the eden primals, familiars, constructs that we summon in our everyday lives (in the game world). What’s your point with it exactly?At least they weren’t doing what Uldah did and having animals being slaughtered left and right purely for entertainment.

[redheadturk]

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

Were mistakes made? Yeah, maybe so, and there were quests that said outright that distractions could lead to mistakes in the creation process. It doesn't mean it was "for vanity", it means they were attempting to make a creature that was meant to be a predator for the purpose of population control and made a mistake during the creation, which lead to having to unmake the specimens to protect the rest of the species, and to protect them as well, because much less cruel to be unmade than to overpredate and end up starving.

[tokinokanatae]

Little comfort to the Lykaons, who were made that way by a researcher, potential for no reason other than vanity, and now must be killed. They had to be, that I agree, but that doesn’t change the innate cruelty of it all.

Why assume malice on behalf of the creator? Even if they don't feel as strongly as Hermes does, there's no reason for them to have deliberately made the lykaons flawed in that particular way.

[Jandor]

Get 'robot that screams' vibes from Elpis sometimes.



'I've made a shark with two heads!'
'Why?...'

[Lauront]

I think the reason saying, "the Ancients failed Hermes's test" is getting pushback is because of a lot of interconnected factors.

Zodiark as a solution is, frankly, a monument to the ingenuity of the Ancients. Everything we can infer about him from Endwalker tells us that if pure "survival of the species" was the metric for pass/fail, then he likely is a passing state. The rest of the universe might decay and die around Etheirys due to the song of Meteion--and heck, Zodiark might not be able to hold out against her forever--but they'd probably last for a really really really really really really really long time. After all, the "pass" state of Elpis isn't "can this species live forever and ever up to and including the heat death of the universe" or "can the test subject assert their ability to survive by (potentially) murdering the test giver" either.

Where things get sticky is Venat's addition to the equation. Venat introduces a moral component that frankly, isn't there when it comes to the test species must pass for Elpis. The fire wolves were not culled by the researchers because they were "evil" or "bad", but that their innate nature made them disruptive to any habitat they would be introduced into.

It depends - if you mean the "accept suffering" thing, you can take it as a moral element, but I'd say her rendition of the test is purely pragmatic, i.e. accept suffering and avoid the sacrifices to restore things as they were (for reasons I can't/won't tell you) to avoid us ultimately meeting our doom. Neither she nor Hermes incorporate any aspect of treating all life as equal into it, and indeed her plan would potentially be compromised if she began setting such limitations - in any case, if the test included any such component, it would be failed outright by the sundered. They don't even treat one another as equals, let alone all the other life on the star. I don't take his concerns with the creations particularly seriously for that reason. He's fine with using them as fodder when it suits him and dooming them along with everything else to Meteion's plan, which to me is sufficient to dismiss any pretence of him caring that greatly. Dealing with the creations in Elpis merely forces him to confront the actual source of his unease (implied to be a trait of his very soul) - death, and its implications (as he sees them) for any purpose held in life, hence the malformed question Meteion is tasked with answering. The test he is thrusting on mankind (and everything else) is plainly not the sort of tests they used to ensure the creations could be integrated into the broader star, which is why I consider it issued in bad faith/out of spite. This sort of cruelty endures in him as Fandaniel in the dying soldier scenario. Her rationale for answering the test is purely to address the fate that could eventually meet them, but needless to say I find her methods questionable and I am left unconvinced that this was the only way to address the issue. I agree that Zodiark is testament to their willpower and ingenuity and mankind has him to thank in large part for its continued existence.

As to the Lyakons, this, exactly. They were to be unmade and the concept revised in order for them not to be deadly to other species outside of hunting. Which is a completely normal state of affairs in Elpis and should not be in the least criticized.

And that is after they entertained multiple methods of re-evaluating their behaviour as-is. To me they're entities which don't differ much to Zenos.