The Expert roulette design is extremely bad

[Shurrikhan]

Just do more work, forehead. =D

Folks really out here just acting like "scaling up" a dungeon is as simple as "make everything level 90."

There's a difference between "this is harder than you make it out to be" and claiming that "this is an unrealistic suggestion" by which to reach the given effect.

Consider the alternative means of reaching greater content variety without having to sync down:

1. Making more dungeons, traditionally.
2. Making hard mode dungeons -- which still save relatively little time, all for a much less original dungeon.

That's it.

Learning how to scale dungeons is doubtless going to have an investment cost, but doing so provides us with literal expansions worth of additional level-cap content. Rather than some dozen dungeons per expansion, we'd have, per expansion, a dozen more. Rather than merely 2-3 of those being relevant at a time, we'd could regularly rotate through at least several.

To achieve even nearly that same effect otherwise would require we more than quadruple the rate at which we produce new dungeons. That seems the far less realistic.

At best, given that learning how to scale past content procedurally is still almost certain to be most efficient long-term solution, calling such "unrealistic" is to really just a euphemism for "shut up and take your incredibly limited grind-loop; any significant improvement is not worth pursuing."

[Puremallace]

I would rather have "hard modes" of these dungeons instead of them just scaling up.
So, something kinda similar to what they are doing with the trials.
Hard mode Anima, please.

So my suggestion is to just get the tech down to scale them up to provide variety into the expert roullette. There are some ABSOLUTELY amazing dungeons in Endwalker than I do not expect to ever see again outside of explorer mode.

My basic idea is if Square Enix is going to expend the time to develop all of these dungeons then why not put them somewhere that end game characters might actually want to do them unless these guys are just that hardcore devoted to making the MSQ this god mode experience with a dungeon that takes months to develop that people might do at most once.

Maybe Square Enix does not realize this but by creating Bozja you basically killed your leveling roulette post lvl 71 because it is EXTREMELY more efficient to do Skirmishes than any of the roulettes.

[Themarvin]

you would be having Expert Roulette and lvl90 Roulette soon, to be able to rotate the gear tiers that is.

Either way you get rewarded for using both.

[Kolsykol]

There's a difference between "this is harder than you make it out to be" and claiming that "this is an unrealistic suggestion" by which to reach the given effect.

Consider the alternative means of reaching greater content variety without having to sync down:

1. Making more dungeons, traditionally.
2. Making hard mode dungeons -- which still save relatively little time, all for a much less original dungeon.

That's it.

Learning how to scale dungeons is doubtless going to have an investment cost, but doing so provides us with literal expansions worth of additional level-cap content. Rather than some dozen dungeons per expansion, we'd have, per expansion, a dozen more. Rather than merely 2-3 of those being relevant at a time, we'd could regularly rotate through at least several.

To achieve even nearly that same effect otherwise would require we more than quadruple the rate at which we produce new dungeons. That seems the far less realistic.

At best, given that learning how to scale past content procedurally is still almost certain to be most efficient long-term solution, calling such "unrealistic" is to really just a euphemism for "shut up and take your incredibly limited grind-loop; any significant improvement is not worth pursuing."

So much this, it's a short-term investement for a long-term reward.

In the end of the day FFXIV is designed to keep old content relevant it's fair to expect it to be a bit better than it is currently.
It increases the overall enjoyment of the game.

[Kolsykol]

Its a short term investment that no one will do. Hard Modes were already done, and no one did them.

If they were part of the roulette people would.

[Shurrikhan]

Its a short term investment that no one will do. Hard Modes were already done, and no one did them.

Yes, they did, in the exact same way and to the exact same degree as any other dungeon in the Expert Roulette. People didn't just suddenly stop doing Expert Roulette whenever there was a Hard Mode dungeon added (or rather, only start doing Expert Roulette when Hard Mode dungeons stopped being produced, since back then there was a Hard Mode dungeon added every patch).

Not that the periodic costs of remodeling, rerouting, repopulating, and redesigning the encounters of a dungeon has much to do with designing a procedure by which to scale up any and all dungeons. Except perhaps to be the example of a far less efficient way to increase content variety available to our most efficient weekly grind loop.

[linayar]

Then stop begging tanks to queue.

As someone who only queues into expert as DPS, there is no need to beg for tanks to queue. The roulette reward itself (along with adventurer in need bonus) is enough to get a tank to queue.

On the broader topic of this thread, it's not hyperbolic to say that limiting the most effective means of weekly currency acquisition to 2-3 dungeons wastes an obvious opportunity to scale up older content, be that between caps or at old level-caps, into enjoyable relevance.

I'm not sure it'll be more relevant just because you scale it up rather than sync down.

Even in WoW, I still remember that one tank early in BfA's release that very quickly solo'd Freehold's final boss on Normal difficulty while the rest of the party were dealing with the third boss.

FFXIV's dungeons are already easy enough (especially without level and item level syncs) without throwing in WoW's method of scaling up dungeons. And even if FFXIV can be more careful with scaling up dungeons, that'll probably just slow down development and it'll be closer to Unreal for dungeons. Or, if not, they'll have to change how the current sync works, and in all probability, it'll just be worse than the current situation. That doesn't sound appealing just to have leveling content scaled for level cap jobs.

I do think Expert could just have the entire level cap dungeons, though. That, in the long run, gives enough variety for the roulette throughout the expansion without having to deal with scaling issues.

Nor is it hyperbolic to say that level cap content largely goes unseen after its expansion, especially given that the 50/60/70/80/etc. roulette has almost rarely been as exp-efficient as current dungeons or FATE grinds.

I don't think that really matters. People have plenty of chances of running the dungeons when they're on Expert. They also can still run them more in the other level cap dungeon roulette afterward or the previous expansions' level cap roulette in future expansions.

[Shurrikhan]

They used to be part of roulette. They aren't anymore for a reason.

No one did the Hard Modes when queuing DF roulettes. You had more broken groups and runs when people bailed because "lol content too hard".

"<Dungeon Title> (Hard)" dungeons were no harder than any other dungeon of the same tier. They were literally just "<Dungeon Title> version 2".

Heck, "Pharos Sirius (Hard)" was, despite giving 10 levels' more skills to work with, easier than the original "Pharos Sirius", as was "Amdapor Keep (Hard)", and arguably a good half of "(Hard)" Modes. "(Hard)" is literally just the game's notation for a v2 that isn't yet serious content. (You'll note that new primals skip that tier entirely, because, in this game, Hard has traditionally meant "no harder than normal mode, if the original was level capped, just higher level" or "the level cap version of an incredibly easy leveling fight" (see Titan, Garuda, and Ifrit for examples).

How... did you not know this? And why are you promoting policy when this badly misinformed?

They used to be part of roulette. They aren't anymore for a reason.

And that reason, according to Yoshi-P, is that it was too large a reoccurring drain on development resources to make 3 dungeons than 2 (and eventually 2 than 1). Hard Mode dungeons weren't cropped in particular; the devs just started making fewer dungeons altogether and remained committed to at least one of those dungeons per patch still being original, so eventually that one original dungeon per patch cycle was all we still got.

[Shurrikhan]

Mentor Roulettes.
Hard Modes were to hard for DF when they were relevant, they would be too hard now. No one did them in DF when they were available, and no one would do them in DF now. And no amount of obfuscating or conflation for what Yoshida has said is going to change that.

Let me get this straight:

The dungeons (unless you're referring to the likes of "Titan (Hard)") which tended to be easier among their tiers were somehow too hard for mentor roulettes and this, despite Yoshida having said such was due to having too limited of resources to do otherwise other forms of side-content, is the real reason dungeon count per patch was reduced?

______

And while we're at it, let's be clear here, too: The idea that "it was hard then, so it'd be too hard now" is complete bogus. Yes, there was a time when Titan (Hard) was difficult for even for normal-ping players. That time is not now.

[Raikai]

Not sure how many others feel this way but Endwalker had by my count 8 dungeons. When I look at the Expert Roulette no matter the expansion it is the same 3 dungeons recycled over and over and over.

I find this to be a horrible use of developer resources and time. What is the logical reason for not having all 8 dungeons in the expert queue?

Probably because people would be more interested in running the latest ones as they are released... as opposed to have one chance in like 12+ dungeons by the end of the expansion. I'm fine with only being the 3 latest ones.

However, I'd welcome anything challenging for a light party in the current expansion, let it be a new deep dungeon, some sort of EX Dungeon mode...