Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Riusvell]

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.
I'm legitimately tired of trying to explain my argument while people are just going like; But this is a "real summoner!".
I want my Summons to have an actual impact, not go away after having summoned them. Like it feels hollow to see what they've become now, my eyes roll up in my head. It loses it's "charm" (if it had any) real fast. I miss the non-spaced out Carbuncle, though I am grateful it's still around.

It isn't even about wanting the old one back, at all. I just want to feel like I'm not going to fall asleep out of boredom and play my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, thematically and lorewise. But this hollow shell of a job legitimately isn't it, this rework is not a success and it's not even complete to begin with.
Give me my janky pet back because at least it showed some signs of life, give me my Phoenix combo back and give one to Bahamut. Let me feel like I'm an actual summoner and not a generic mage pretending to be one! I want to fight together with my summons and the current state of Demis doesn't even make me feel like I am, should I not have fallen asleep by then. The spells of BLM and RDM feel like they actually make an impact upon usage, none of the current "spells" on ""Summoner"" do right now. I get annoyed by my primals showing up and I hate seeing Garuda even more now. Wish I could legit get rid of her through non-third party means. Which was what the old system allowed me to do.

They could've done an after image or something to solve the "NO EGI!!!!!!!" feature and keep the Carbuncle around, make use of it's headgemstone but they didn't. There's so many ways they could've taken it, but this is legitimately the least amount of effort being put into a job upon it's rework.

The rework shouldn't drive away it's old fans, it should have never happened and they should've looked into meeting both sides equally. Not favour the one side that is now going around harassing the people that liked the older iteration for several reasons, even if it was it having DoTs. Some of us just want to let our voices be heard and not be muffled out because we're apparently in the wrong for wanting what was our favourite or preferred job to be playable again to us.

Can you blame me? I always wanted more people to play the class and teach them, now I'm actively roasting it because it's legit no longer a job nor a class as it practically plays itself or playing with duplo bricks. I can't call them legos because they're way too advanced for what the current state actually is.

[WlyemR]

No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.

That's...literally what a summoner does. "Mage" is a generic, catch all term for magic user, so it can be applied to anyone that uses magic.

The super dramatic naysaying aside, the argument to whether or not this SMN is a "real summoner" isn't super productive. In any one persons eyes, it has always been a "real summoner," whether you are talking about 2.0 all the way to 6.0.
The main issue is job identity as it moved more and more of its systems away from DoT interaction towards pet interaction. The two systems felt more like they were mashed together and less like a cohesive whole.
The perceived complexity of the 5.0 version was mostly due to unaligned job mechanics and instances of pet unresponsiveness, which I feel like the 6.0 version solved.
Is it perfect? No. Is it a better base? Yes. The most talked about issue is lack of actions outside of the main rotation. Bringing Energy Drain back to 30 Sec , making Ruin IV an OGCD, and giving us a low level version of Astral Flow are a few of the ways I believe some of that kinetic flow can be brought back.

[SieyaM]

That's...literally what a summoner does. "Mage" is a generic, catch all term for magic user, so it can be applied to anyone that uses magic.

The super dramatic naysaying aside, the argument to whether or not this SMN is a "real summoner" isn't super productive. In any one persons eyes, it has always been a "real summoner," whether you are talking about 2.0 all the way to 6.0.
The main issue is job identity as it moved more and more of its systems away from DoT interaction towards pet interaction. The two systems felt more like they were mashed together and less like a cohesive whole.
The perceived complexity of the 5.0 version was mostly due to unaligned job mechanics and instances of pet unresponsiveness, which I feel like the 6.0 version solved.
Is it perfect? No. Is it a better base? Yes. The most talked about issue is lack of actions outside of the main rotation. Bringing Energy Drain back to 30 Sec , making Ruin IV an OGCD, and giving us a low level version of Astral Flow are a few of the ways I believe some of that kinetic flow can be brought back.

These are things I am perfectly happy to talk about too. There sure can be more involved in the rotation, and making ruin IV oGCD would be a tremendous help. That is the general issue with this current design, it is a fine base to build on but at this point we should be beyond the base of job and into the finer details.

[Riusvell]

That's...literally what a summoner does. "Mage" is a generic, catch all term for magic user, so it can be applied to anyone that uses magic.

The super dramatic naysaying aside, the argument to whether or not this SMN is a "real summoner" isn't super productive. In any one persons eyes, it has always been a "real summoner," whether you are talking about 2.0 all the way to 6.0.
The main issue is job identity as it moved more and more of its systems away from DoT interaction towards pet interaction. The two systems felt more like they were mashed together and less like a cohesive whole.
The perceived complexity of the 5.0 version was mostly due to unaligned job mechanics and instances of pet unresponsiveness, which I feel like the 6.0 version solved.
Is it perfect? No. Is it a better base? Yes. The most talked about issue is lack of actions outside of the main rotation. Bringing Energy Drain back to 30 Sec , making Ruin IV an OGCD, and giving us a low level version of Astral Flow are a few of the ways I believe some of that kinetic flow can be brought back.

Well with "mage" I meant well, the absolute generic. Not really having outstanding qualities which what would happen if you took away the primals appearing for more than a few seconds.

As I've stated before, it legitimately isn't about the DoTs for me right now. I want to interact more with my summons and have my summons actually make an impact barring messing up me and my party member's vision. Energy drain has to go, together with Fester. If we want to move away from this "NO DOTS!!!!!!!1!!!!" stuff, then get rid of the last remnants of what tied into it or return one to have it make sense at least. And I'm saying that purely because FESTER of all things is still called Fester. It makes absolutely no sense for it to remain lest the job gets a DoT back. (I am talking design/name issues now, not about wanting it to come back. Big distinction here.)

I would make the Demi's OGCDs instead of Ruin IV, so Ruin IV can line up with them, at the very least. Another thing I want to see changed is Phoenix gaining it's combo back and it extending to Bahamut. At least that felt good to use in ShB, ignoring everything else.

Just make it more engaging in general, please. Not any complexity is needed for something to be engaging.
Currently having more enjoyment from playing my most hated role archetype, which people claimed had less gameplay than the job we are currently discussing.
I at least have more to do now, and mind you. I have something that basically boils down to a deficiency that messes up my attention and makes me get bored from things that don't give me any feedback from playing nor give me a feeling of having any form of engagement from what I am playing.

[Anvaire]

No, flinging around spells with a primal image isn't a summoner. That's just a mage.
I'm legitimately tired of trying to explain my argument while people are just going like; But this is a "real summoner!".
I want my Summons to have an actual impact, not go away after having summoned them. Like it feels hollow to see what they've become now, my eyes roll up in my head. It loses it's "charm" (if it had any) real fast. I miss the non-spaced out Carbuncle, though I am grateful it's still around.

It isn't even about wanting the old one back, at all. I just want to feel like I'm not going to fall asleep out of boredom and play my favourite Final Fantasy job in general, thematically and lorewise. But this hollow shell of a job legitimately isn't it, this rework is not a success and it's not even complete to begin with.
Give me my janky pet back because at least it showed some signs of life, give me my Phoenix combo back and give one to Bahamut. Let me feel like I'm an actual summoner and not a generic mage pretending to be one! I want to fight together with my summons and the current state of Demis doesn't even make me feel like I am, should I not have fallen asleep by then. The spells of BLM and RDM feel like they actually make an impact upon usage, none of the current "spells" on ""Summoner"" do right now. I get annoyed by my primals showing up and I hate seeing Garuda even more now. Wish I could legit get rid of her through non-third party means. Which was what the old system allowed me to do.

They could've done an after image or something to solve the "NO EGI!!!!!!!" feature and keep the Carbuncle around, make use of it's headgemstone but they didn't. There's so many ways they could've taken it, but this is legitimately the least amount of effort being put into a job upon it's rework.

The rework shouldn't drive away it's old fans, it should have never happened and they should've looked into meeting both sides equally. Not favour the one side that is now going around harassing the people that liked the older iteration for several reasons, even if it was it having DoTs. Some of us just want to let our voices be heard and not be muffled out because we're apparently in the wrong for wanting what was our favourite or preferred job to be playable again to us.

Can you blame me? I always wanted more people to play the class and teach them, now I'm actively roasting it because it's legit no longer a job nor a class as it practically plays itself or playing with duplo bricks. I can't call them legos because they're way too advanced for what the current state actually is.

So if i understand this correctly. You want summoner's summons to stay on field and operate like pre EW Endwalker, in that you have to maximise imputs to ensure you get enough WW's rather than it be autos and carbuncle, to actually do something other than just quirk at your feet?

SO rather than channel the essence of the Summoner you want the summons to be summons and the summoner to augment said abilities of the summon.

At the moment, putting aside gameplay actuals in leui of lore, summoner acts as both a "summoner" in terms of summoning and an evoker because they are effecitvly using the summons to temper their arsenals with the summons aether.

While what you would rather is the summons manifest, and rather then the interaction being the tempering of the Summoner spells, it is instead synergising between the two so they both feel like a joint endevour?

I can get behind the fantasy that you want, and understand why you wouldnt like this rendition. I do think Phoenix's rotation was given to Titan, so if they made titan stay on the field as a summon and do some sort of demi like rinteraction, with titan countering each spell used? while retaining the 1- combo?

I could see the appeal of that.

I can understand why you are upset, I came with the same worry but ultimately, while not perfect deciced i was ok with the new Design, its by no means perfect but it has grown on me. I really hope that those like you who liked the old summoner can get a class that offers what is now missing, either a dot mage, or an adjustment to the current smn that still retains the core of the rework but ultimately makes the summons feel more like summons. But i really think the dots never really suited smn, it and to an extent Aetherflow slowly were reduced from center of the class to a wierd thing retained from 2.0's rendition. They were just... there. Thats not to say a dot class cannot be well designed and thought out to work. With smn the conflict was always between being dot based and summon based.

[Riusvell]

So if i understand this correctly. You want summoner's summons to stay on field and operate like pre EW Endwalker, in that you have to maximise imputs to ensure you get enough WW's rather than it be autos and carbuncle, to actually do something other than just quirk at your feet?

SO rather than channel the essence of the Summoner you want the summons to be summons and the summoner to augment said abilities of the summon.

At the moment, putting aside gameplay actuals in leui of theory, summoner acts as both a "summoner" in terms of summoning and an evoker because they are effecitvly using the summons to temper their arsenals with the summons aether.

While what you would rather is the summons manifest, and rather then the interaction being the tempering of the Summoner spells, it is instead synergising between the two so they both feel like a joint endevour?

I can get behind the fantasy that you want, and understand why you wouldnt like this rendition. I do think Phoenix's rotation was given to Titan, so if they made titan stay on the field as a summon and do some sort of demi like rinteraction, with titan countering each spell used? while retaining the 1- combo?

I could see the appeal of that.

I can understand why you are upset, I came with the same worry but ultimately, while not perfect deciced i was ok with the new Design, its by no means perfect but it has grown on me. I really hope that those like you who liked the old summoner can get a class that offers what is now missing, either a dot mage, or an adjustment to the current smn that still retains the core of the rework but ultimately makes the summons feel more like summons. But i really think the dots never really suited smn, it and to an extent Aetherflow slowly were reduced from center of the class to a wierd thing retained from 2.0's rendition. They were just... there. Thats not to say a dot class cannot be well designed and thought out to work. With smn the conflict was always between being dot based and summon based.

You're one of the first that actually responds with some understanding. Thank you.
Though my post above shows a reason why I have difficulty with the design as it is right now barring some thematic issues. There is no engagement and it was honestly never about the DoTs (Barring the problem of Aetherflow still being there together with Fester).

I'm praying that they will listen to some of the woes the old playerbase has and meet half way so it has a more solid design and people don't have to feel extremely alienated. So the job becomes more solidified and not unfinished as it is right now.

[SieyaM]

If that's all that you can take away, sure bud. Whatever you believe.
This is what I meant with harassment. People like you who make assumptions about the people that don't like the "job".
There's nothing in my post stating I want complexity, so nice reading comprehension you have there.

Then please summarize your post, really it seems like you want the terrible pet that you had next to no interaction with back and that had terrible AI to the point that if you didn't try and game the system a little bit you lost out on a huge portion of your DPS. But by all means explain exactly what you want to me. Also don't come here talking about harassment when you're over there talking about lego bricks being too advanced for this and generally talking down about a job and by extension anyone who might be enjoying it.