Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[tearagion]

New summoner, more like fifth healer without actual healing.

I really like the idea of phase-based job, but they just went for bare minimum of what that design needs. Your choice doesnt matter as much as advertised because 2 of 3 primals are free movement. Ifrit's gapcloser is more of advantage rather than something you have to work around. Garuda's dot damage from slipstream is barely noticeable on single target unless you are aiming for every last potency point for your parse.

Both demis got downgraded in design, going from something you've built up to, to "press 1 for 15 seconds 4head". Yeah, you throw festers around.... in bahamut. Holding them from phoenix for 2m burst phases means that phoenix, while being "1 minute burst phase", plays like old "ruin mage" that people like to hate. Nothing is different between them, which is just nothing but wasted potential, they could give every demi its own identity. Like give bahamut short cast times and add some more bahamut-themed things to it, so its "thicc damage demi", and give phoenix ogcds so it would be "swift ogcd demi". Already something that separates these two and makes hitting lvl 80 at least somewhat exciting.

"At least its real summoner now"? Is it tho? Just because its similar to rydia and yuna doesnt mean its THE summoner of the series. FF3, FF5 (and FFT with FF11 from what ive seen), in those games summoners do not cast spells by themselves, always casting summons, unless you crossjob something that can. So where is true summoner? Nowhere! Both old and new summoners are just another iteration of it, one is "Give your summons orders and do NOTHING related to summoning" and other is "Summon for some potency with no other effects and then do NOTHING related to summoning".

"But summoner shouldn't have dots!"? But Rydia had both Bio and Poison, are people just conveniently forgetting about it for the sake of saying that "new smn is similar to rydia = its good"?
I'd imagine current smn was just extremely rushed due to the fact that they've had 4 iterations prior to it in development and current has barebones execution.

"It's a good foundation though, they will add new things later!": Look at machinist. People said same thing. Nothing got added. And why is foundation released in major expansion instead of full job?

I do enjoy the skill replacement system, i think this is really good way to avoid button bloat. But they could've done so much more with it. Why are gemshine and brilliance unused in bahamut and phoenix? Or r3 and tri-disaster in gems?

Nice post, well articulated complaints. Look forward to one of aveyond's 3 copy-pasted worthless replies

[Dyvid]

Nice post, well articulated complaints. Look forward to one of aveyond's 3 copy-pasted worthless replies

Didn't take long. Anytime the word DoTs. It's tiresome really. Clearly the new SMN is so boring people would rather play the forums over the game.

[Riusvell]

New summoner, more like fifth healer without actual healing.

I really like the idea of phase-based job, but they just went for bare minimum of what that design needs. Your choice doesnt matter as much as advertised because 2 of 3 primals are free movement. Ifrit's gapcloser is more of advantage rather than something you have to work around. Garuda's dot damage from slipstream is barely noticeable on single target unless you are aiming for every last potency point for your parse.

Both demis got downgraded in design, going from something you've built up to, to "press 1 for 15 seconds 4head". Yeah, you throw festers around.... in bahamut. Holding them from phoenix for 2m burst phases means that phoenix, while being "1 minute burst phase", plays like old "ruin mage" that people like to hate. Nothing is different between them, which is just nothing but wasted potential, they could give every demi its own identity. Like give bahamut short cast times and add some more bahamut-themed things to it, so its "thicc damage demi", and give phoenix ogcds so it would be "swift ogcd demi". Already something that separates these two and makes hitting lvl 80 at least somewhat exciting.

"At least its real summoner now"? Is it tho? Just because its similar to rydia and yuna doesnt mean its THE summoner of the series. FF3, FF5 (and FFT with FF11 from what ive seen), in those games summoners do not cast spells by themselves, always casting summons, unless you crossjob something that can. So where is true summoner? Nowhere! Both old and new summoners are just another iteration of it, one is "Give your summons orders and do NOTHING related to summoning" and other is "Summon for some potency with no other effects and then do NOTHING related to summoning".

"But summoner shouldn't have dots!"? But Rydia had both Bio and Poison, are people just conveniently forgetting about it for the sake of saying that "new smn is similar to rydia = its good"?
I'd imagine current smn was just extremely rushed due to the fact that they've had 4 iterations prior to it in development and current has barebones execution.

"It's a good foundation though, they will add new things later!": Look at machinist. People said same thing. Nothing got added. And why is foundation released in major expansion instead of full job?

I do enjoy the skill replacement system, i think this is really good way to avoid button bloat. But they could've done so much more with it. Why are gemshine and brilliance unused in bahamut and phoenix? Or r3 and tri-disaster in gems?

Nicely put though where are my girls Eiko and Garnet? If we're bringing Iconic summoners in, at least include all of them!

[aveyond-dreams]

Rydia was also an archer, to some degree. She could equip a handful of bows, certainly more than she had poison spells. If we follow that train of logic, Summoners should also be archers! The full list of her abilities can be found here. Most of the time you were casting elemental magic or summons. That's basically it. If you would like to see a return of poison magic, please voice your support in one of the many threads dedicated to a new caster for 7.0.

Even if new summons were only added as glamour options (and I sincerely hope that is not the case) I'll take a simple job that's actually playable without the kind of punishment that Shb SMN had or the convoluted mechanics competing for attention that have plagued the job since it was added in ARR.

[MyakotApelsia]

Rydia was also an archer, to some degree. She could equip a handful of bows, certainly more than she had poison spells. If we follow that train of logic, Summoners should also be archers! The full list of her abilities can be found here. Most of the time you were casting elemental magic or summons. That's basically it. If you would like to see a return of poison magic, please voice your support in one of the many threads dedicated to a new caster for 7.0.

Even if new summons were only added as glamour options (and I sincerely hope that is not the case) I'll take a simple job that's actually playable without the kind of punishment that Shb SMN had or the convoluted mechanics competing for attention that have plagued the job since it was added in ARR.

My point was that if you are going to use one specific iteration as an example of "why this is good and this is bad", then do it well, and do not take out specific parts of said iteration to prove your point. She casted actual blm spells, maybe we should remove summoner as a job and add summoning to black mage?

I personally didnt like dots. However, SHB SMN barely had any interaction when it came to them. For all intents and purposes, it was "pressing tri disaster 3 times and hardcasting them once".
If we take the logic of "it had dots, therefore it was dot job", why not apply it to other jobs? Paladin is dot job, pre-ew ninja was dot job, gunbreaker, healers, monk, hw drk. "Having dots" is not the same as "Working around dots", like how it was with pre-ew bard.

I enjoyed old summoner because it had buildup to your burst phases, those burst phases were very satisfying to pull off. We had to cast but we had resources to move around, not the other way around. Both bahamut and phoenix were different in what they did. Demi movement was clunky but they have fixed it in endwalker by fixing them in place, however at same time they removed what they were from gameplay perspective.

SHB SMN was also anything but hard or punishing. It was actually very simple, and i really feel like the only people that actually thought it was hard were the ones that looked at that one "2 minute opener" picture and thought "oh wow thats hard i wont play it". The only actual reason job would be punishing for you if you couldn't use at least one braincell when playing the game.

Say, they will bring new primals in. Without changing what primals do at its source, the only thing they will bring every such update is different animations on your gemshine without anything actually being different.

I personally don't mind them going this direction, as in "use primal, then your gamestyle changes", but as ive said, current smn fails at it. But you do you, the fact that other people dont enjoy it shouldn't affect what you enjoy.

[Madoka]

Despite the amount of posts they make in SMN threads, aveyond does not even have arcanist unlocked. And apparently hasn't played since 5.1 despite paying a sub to post, since they have two jobs at 80 and about ilvl 510. They really are only here to shitpost. Maybe even paying a sub just to do so.

[aveyond-dreams]

It's fascinating how those that pride themselves about being masters of old SMN cannot grasp the concept of posting from an alt. In any case come 6.1 this and another handful of alts that have fallen behind will get a SMN boost-assuming this crowd doesn't succeed in their plot to twist Summoner back into the poison mage/"Complex!" class they loved dearly that the rest of the world was veering away from all the while.

[mathias-merodach]

I think it is you that is obsessed with things; obsessed with the chance that maybe the change you say you enjoy so much might -actually- be undone. So you seek to do nothing but poke and prod at individuals expressing their honest opinions with nothing more than series of repetitive statements. You do this, I can only assume, out of a desire to get a volatile reaction because you either enjoy upsetting people or so you can claim the victim of being attacked. I would say this is further evidenced by, when all else has failed, you fall back on to shouts of "poison mage", "complex" and "Warlock" while using anecdotal evidence and unverifiable statements like "rest of the world" "all other's" "everyone else." But, for the sake of argument, let us say that your passion for this current summoner is real, and even I'm starting to doubt that it is, that still does not give you the moral high ground to attack and deride people because they have an opposing viewpoint. And what is this about a plot? You think that some group of players have managed to get together started to systematically post negativity about the rework with a deliberate and aimed goal amongst them? Or that maybe, just maybe, the rework is much more of a failure than you are comfortable admitting and that's why you attack others? And I can tell you this, after hitting 90 with the class last night, getting a fancier egi glam (because that's -all- your lvl 90 trait is) was not with the complete gutting of the class. And if -this- is what their intent was, then they should have introduced all of this class as Evoker and left summoner alone.

[aveyond-dreams]

I think it is you that is obsessed with things; obsessed with the chance that maybe the change you say you enjoy so much might -actually- be undone. So you seek to do nothing but poke and prod at individuals expressing their honest opinions with nothing more than series of repetitive statements. You do this, I can only assume, out of a desire to get a volatile reaction because you either enjoy upsetting people or so you can claim the victim of being attacked. I would say this is further evidenced by, when all else has failed, you fall back on to shouts of "poison mage", "complex" and "Warlock" while using anecdotal evidence and unverifiable statements like "rest of the world" "all other's" "everyone else." But, for the sake of argument, let us say that your passion for this current summoner is real, and even I'm starting to doubt that it is, that still does not give you the moral high ground to attack and deride people because they have an opposing viewpoint. And what is this about a plot? You think that some group of players have managed to get together started to systematically post negativity about the rework with a deliberate and aimed goal amongst them? Or that maybe, just maybe, the rework is much more of a failure than you are comfortable admitting and that's why you attack others? And I can tell you this, after hitting 90 with the class last night, getting a fancier egi glam (because that's -all- your lvl 90 trait is) was not with the complete gutting of the class. And if -this- is what their intent was, then they should have introduced all of this class as Evoker and left summoner alone.

That's a whole lot of words to say that you still cannot get over the fact that the job changed and you just didn't like it. That's quite alright, because I'm under no impression that a reversion or reintroduction of the themes and mechanics of pre-6.0 SMN would go down smoothly with the overwhelming majority of people.

What this really is reminds me of when you had people saying "omg no one would play bunny boys!" Only for them to become one of the most popular race/gender combinations much in the same way that SMN is now the most popular caster outside of JP, whose favourite caster is presently Red Mage, another straightforward class that is by no means "complex!"

Though if that is the case, unlike the bulk of people here I do have other jobs to fall back on. In the time after I dropped 5.X SMN I did manage to get a taste of so many of the other wonderful classes in this game that don't suffer from a permanent state of identity crisis (except Bard, but that's a battle for another day) and I was able to have a really great time.

[mathias-merodach]

I am just trying to understand your purpose. Why you haunt nearly every summoner thread rehashing the same arguments again and again before retreating back into attacks, derision, and dismissal as more people confront your arguments. And You have presented no proof of that. You have just made statements. As I told you before, you could find 1,000 people saying that they thoroughly love and approve of something. However, 1,000 of 100,000 is only 1%. Just as you cannot verify that a revert would go down as negatively as you state. One difference between you and I is that I have never made the claim to know the majority of the minds minds of FF14's player base. I have only stated that there are those who I agree and share feelings with. And that's not something I am comfortable saying as I feel it's more of a morality call than an argument but given your repeated claims to know how most players feel I do think it finally needs to be addressed.

And, again, you make another claim about the minds of those that are taking part in this thread. You do not know every class they play and how they spend their time so how can you, in good conscious, say they have no other class to fall back on? Perhaps I missed it, but I have not seen anyone state that they only play summoner and, if no summoner then sub cancelled. And I think it had a very good identity. Both sides are just opinions are just opinions. In addition, I do play other classes and I enjoy my time playing them. I advertise two of them openly. That does not mean that I, or anyone else for that matter, are now lesser to you because we express our discontent with the changes done. I can only wonder how you would feel, given your showing of Black Mage and how you tell people to pick up other classes while not knowing, or apparently caring, if they have or not, if it was changed to the point that you only had three spells and nothing else to manage, use or play with: a ST, an AoE, and then say Flare to proc on occasion for added damage, and lost everything from the Umbral Fire and Ice, Umbral Hearts, and Leylines to Freeze, Fire/Blizzard 4, Foul, Xenoglossy, Triple and Sharpcast,