Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Skye0]

As someone who's played HW, ShB, and now the EW SMN, I just wish there was a little more to the current iteration. As it stands, Fester is just a generic dps oGCD that I've been cramming 4 of into my DWT while under Searing light and other 60s/120s raid buffs (2 from the FBT energy drain and another 2 from the DWT energy drain). I would like it if it were somehow more tied to the rest of the kit and required more responsibility from the player. It could be a short dot, a personal buff for the next few spells, just something where we aren't mindlessly blowing them all at once. I'd be more in favor of this since the high usage of this skill in DWT phase makes FBT feel lackluster and empty (yeah I know it got potency buffs but I'm not talking about potency here). I'm also disappointed about the removal of the combo mechanic for FBT since it killed the little difference these two Trances once had.

And if they don't want to push SMN too far ahead of RDM, then I think it'd be nice if we could leave RDM as the aoe defensive caster (Magick Barrier) and allow SMN to use their Radiant Aegis to shield individual players. Either for tank busters or mechanics like in P2S where a dps will have to soak damage. We certainly have enough instant casts to make use of it.

I'm also really sad that I can't even leave my OWN spell effects on because Ifrit and Titan summonings are way too bright and hide aoes. Was really hoping for a fix or at least a mention along the lines of "We plan to make adjustments to the primal animations" in the patch notes. If you can magically have your sight unhindered by them then I'm glad you're able to enjoy the smn aesthetic more than a lot of others and I atm. :/

[mathias-merodach]

So if i understand this correctly. You want summoner's summons to stay on field and operate like pre EW Endwalker, in that you have to maximise imputs to ensure you get enough WW's rather than it be autos and carbuncle, to actually do something other than just quirk at your feet?

SO rather than channel the essence of the Summoner you want the summons to be summons and the summoner to augment said abilities of the summon.

At the moment, putting aside gameplay actuals in leui of lore, summoner acts as both a "summoner" in terms of summoning and an evoker because they are effecitvly using the summons to temper their arsenals with the summons aether.

While what you would rather is the summons manifest, and rather then the interaction being the tempering of the Summoner spells, it is instead synergising between the two so they both feel like a joint endevour?

I can get behind the fantasy that you want, and understand why you wouldnt like this rendition. I do think Phoenix's rotation was given to Titan, so if they made titan stay on the field as a summon and do some sort of demi like rinteraction, with titan countering each spell used? while retaining the 1- combo?

I could see the appeal of that.

I can understand why you are upset, I came with the same worry but ultimately, while not perfect deciced i was ok with the new Design, its by no means perfect but it has grown on me. I really hope that those like you who liked the old summoner can get a class that offers what is now missing, either a dot mage, or an adjustment to the current smn that still retains the core of the rework but ultimately makes the summons feel more like summons. But i really think the dots never really suited smn, it and to an extent Aetherflow slowly were reduced from center of the class to a wierd thing retained from 2.0's rendition. They were just... there. Thats not to say a dot class cannot be well designed and thought out to work. With smn the conflict was always between being dot based and summon based.

I genuinely applaud this response. While I personally have only grown to dislike SMN more as I have progressed and will, likely, be hitting 90 and never touching it again unless a revert (beyond unlikely I know) or hefty changes, I'm glad that you've been able to take to it. For me, it wasn't about one aspect or another. The dots piqued my interest in the class (because in a strange way I don't understand I hate playing casting classes but love dots), it was the package that kept me playing. The kit, lore, and fantasy, in this instance, were enjoyable where I'm bored to the point of falling asleep while playing casting classes. I've played both RDM and BLM (on an alt), to 70+ and neither have much in the way of appeal. The loss of the one caster dps that got me to even attempt the other two is an incredible blow that's resulted in the same state that I'm in when playing either of the other two.

[Darthgummibear]

I hate it. I wish I hadn't wasted the time and effort to level the job now because they went way overboard with oversimplifying everything.

[Thoosa]

Idk but I like new summoner, but I’m only level 81 or so. Seems better not having so much button bloat.

[elioaiko]

The way I see it, this is how the dev wanted SMN to be, more in line with summon flash and go like in the tactics games seeing as they're a huge fan of tactics in general.

Also summoner in FF history doesn't have dots as well as a "main" summon like carbuncle, they just casted and summoned whatever they needed for the situation.

Ofc MMO combat is gonna have to treat it differently. But I think the current iteration of SMN feels like a go stepping stone. The dev team has had so much trouble with balancing SMN and fighting their class fantasy. This is way more focused even if it's not as rewarding.

Those who reminisce pre-EW SMN are allowed to feel like they're missing that complexity because it had choice and doing things right felt good. But tbh, the job was hectic, had split focus between managing dots, summons, and the pet AI. From developer's POV, it's disaster and they definitely wanted to change it. To someone trying it out, it was daunting and didn't have a natural way of "hey, this goes into this and that works because of that," because it was disjointed.

Depending on the reception, I think they will prune Aetherflow entirely come 7.0 in line of quick summons that range as filler dps (lesser summons) and support skills (moonstone carbuncle).

I don't think the dev team is ever going back because they're slowly but surely deleting every part of HW design in favor of easier ones to design around. They even said we aren't getting back that ambitious jump they had. It's not worth the experimental that can cause more harm to the current balance. I think they want to do more gradual changes over time to find a concept they stick with.

[mathias-merodach]

Honestly, the calling of old SMN being hectic and having a split focus is entirely subjective and only opinion. I was once someone that was new had tried to it out. For me everything fell into place. I'm someone who felt that BLM was a hectic and painful mess to play while being pretty unfulfilling and boring on top of it. And, having BLM at 70 on an alt prior to EW, (I'm now trying it on my main to replace SMN), I never had anywhere near the fulfillment, comfort of play, and enjoyment compared to SMN.

And bringing up SMN history, it's always been whatever the game has required it to be. Sometimes to do nothing but summon, ala 3, sometimes to be a BLM, 4, a white mage, 9 and 10... There is nowhere near enough consistency to say it should't have DoT abilities. It's correct that summoners call whatever they need. That's in addition to what other skills they have depending on the game. Most of these are agmes where elements actually came into play; games where calling Ifrit and or a BLM using Fire actually -healed- enemies like Bombs not killed them. To bring up historical SMN is to invite the abilities their summons have in 11: Carbuncle could poison, Fenrir Paralyze, Titan could bind... it goes on. In FF3, Leviathan did EARTH damage when used by an Evoker. Rydia could poison in 4, or take 7 or 8 where anyone can be a summoner and through the use of Hades and Doomtrain inflict all sorts of status effects which include the DoT poison. To argue summoner history and then approve of how it is now in 14 is to ignore one of the biggest drawbacks: the MP cost. It was one of the differences between them and BLM's; the latter able to cast more for less damage with the former able to cause more damage (and a wide variety of effects as the games went on) at the price of more MP cost. That very cost is why, in games like Tactics, Tactics Advanced 1/2 they learn supports to halve the MP cost. The very nature that proponents for the change turn to is arguably against some of the very games they bring up: anti-spam. Adding to lack of consistency with the class, in Tactics Advanced 1 and 2, it was a -Viera- LOCKED job that came from the Status Ailment class Elementalist; requiring a Fencer ability and a WHM in the 1st game and 2 WHM in the 2nd The Viera who are spiritual, forest dwelling people that I'd say are decided different than Allag.

The point: there's almost no consistency to it. It is potentially one of the most inconsistent in background, getting it, uses, what summons can/can't do, in all of Final Fantasy. Compared to 11 alone, the summon's here are not even shadows of what they can do in that game. Just like Tactics, 7, 5, TA, and 11 are all their own games with their own takes on summoner (again, with some games allowing EVERY character to be summoner, even 'monks' like Tifa and Zell), old summoner was 14's summoner.

[Madoka]

Unrelated to how the thread started, but I don't want to make yet another thread to ask this, but for anybody who has leveled SMN up from ARR levels now, did they change the job quest storyline and fights at all? There was a problem after 5.0 of quests expecting you to have titan-egi tank several monsters, or bosses with heavy hitting attacks that you had to deal with yourself since the quest didn't give a tank npc. Then there was the whole lore thing of Tristan absorbing belial which was supposed to be a big no-no or something and now we just kinda do that before 50 anyway.

[Xrison]

I just started playing SMN recently. (Got up to lvl 60) and it just feels like something is... Missing. I'm a tank main, and my first DPS was RDM. It was a TON of fun. I decided to give SMN a shot and it just doesn't feel as engaging. You have 1 single target and 1 aoe attack, plus the primal summons which are sort of "meh". Does SMN get better after level 70, or is this about as good as it gets?

[Cerbolt]

I just started playing SMN recently. (Got up to lvl 60) and it just feels like something is... Missing. I'm a tank main, and my first DPS was RDM. It was a TON of fun. I decided to give SMN a shot and it just doesn't feel as engaging. You have 1 single target and 1 aoe attack, plus the primal summons which are sort of "meh". Does SMN get better after level 70, or is this about as good as it gets?

The only thing that seems to change as you level is that your summons get more flashy, that's about it really. So I'd say this is as good as it gets.

[MyakotApelsia]

New summoner, more like fifth healer without actual healing.

I really like the idea of phase-based job, but they just went for bare minimum of what that design needs. Your choice doesnt matter as much as advertised because 2 of 3 primals are free movement. Ifrit's gapcloser is more of advantage rather than something you have to work around. Garuda's dot damage from slipstream is barely noticeable on single target unless you are aiming for every last potency point for your parse.

Both demis got downgraded in design, going from something you've built up to, to "press 1 for 15 seconds 4head". Yeah, you throw festers around.... in bahamut. Holding them from phoenix for 2m burst phases means that phoenix, while being "1 minute burst phase", plays like old "ruin mage" that people like to hate. Nothing is different between them, which is just nothing but wasted potential, they could give every demi its own identity. Like give bahamut short cast times and add some more bahamut-themed things to it, so its "thicc damage demi", and give phoenix ogcds so it would be "swift ogcd demi". Already something that separates these two and makes hitting lvl 80 at least somewhat exciting.

"At least its real summoner now"? Is it tho? Just because its similar to rydia and yuna doesnt mean its THE summoner of the series. FF3, FF5 (and FFT with FF11 from what ive seen), in those games summoners do not cast spells by themselves, always casting summons, unless you crossjob something that can. So where is true summoner? Nowhere! Both old and new summoners are just another iteration of it, one is "Give your summons orders and do NOTHING related to summoning" and other is "Summon for some potency with no other effects and then do NOTHING related to summoning".

"But summoner shouldn't have dots!"? But Rydia had both Bio and Poison, are people just conveniently forgetting about it for the sake of saying that "new smn is similar to rydia = its good"?
I'd imagine current smn was just extremely rushed due to the fact that they've had 4 iterations prior to it in development and current has barebones execution.

"It's a good foundation though, they will add new things later!": Look at machinist. People said same thing. Nothing got added. And why is foundation released in major expansion instead of full job?

I do enjoy the skill replacement system, i think this is really good way to avoid button bloat. But they could've done so much more with it. Why are gemshine and brilliance unused in bahamut and phoenix? Or r3 and tri-disaster in gems?