Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[WlyemR]

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.

This is a good explanation of issues with old Summoner.

Every other job has, more or less, a very clear evolution of class identity as it levels.
I have played SMN since 2.0, and even though I enjoyed playing it, there was always that feeling of disconnect between its two kits, DoTs and summoning. Most of this is how it branches off of Arcanist, then has to form it's own identity. As the SMN grew, however, the DoTs felt more and more like something that was just there.

This current identity of SMN feels like it is going in the right direction. Separate buttons were paired down into buttons that change contextually. The kit doesn't feel like two separate jobs fighting for supremacy.
The only real issue that keeps it from feeling complete is a lack of low-level skill progression and a lack of meaningful OGCDs. If they were to change Energy Drain back to a 30 sec cast, make Ruin IV an OGCD, and give us a low-level equivalent of Astral Flow (specifically the 86 trait), then I believe SMN would feel more fulfilling as it progresses.

[SieyaM]

I'm sorry but... I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with that comparison. Please forgive me if my response is incorrect but I'm going to try: you're bringing up summon usage and when one's were used, ST or AoE, depending on the situation as well as Fester/Painflare interactions. What I would then ask is how is that any different from any other class? I'll use DRG as an example. In an AoE situation, my basic rotation is 3 buttons over the 8 buttons I have for single target. So, to the best of my current understanding of your point, there are two entire combo lines made up of 5 buttons I don't press when I'm in an AoE situation and 3 I do not press when I'm in a ST situation. You use what is most applicable to the situation at hand for the maximum benefit. So, say for example, you have a mob of enemies. You had the single target of Aetherflow or the AoE of Energy Drain. You then used Painflare for the AoE. However, if most of the mobs were wiped, you could then use Fester (which did more damaged with your dots, which was only 2). You were not locked into using one or the other. Another example, lets say there was a particular enemy that needed to be burned down. You used Energy Drain and Fester. It died and you still had a charge and a bunch of enemies alive. Well, now you can use Painflare. You had options and interplay with your abilities. And, you only had -TWO- dots. That is the same number as Paladin. There was just one ability, Tri-disaster, that assisted by applying them both and once and one specifically, Bane, that spread them. I fully acknowledge that's how it felt to you, as well, but for me it made complete sense. You are an Arcanist that, along with Y'mitra, a Conjurer, are reconstructing a lost art with bits and pieces that you are slowly putting together with the only starting position you have being that which you already know: Arcanist magic. Then you go off to try and do a thing without a full understanding of the potential outcomes. That's why both WoL and Y'mitra don't first understand why you fail to attune to Ramuh. Neither of you have a clue that you can cap out your aetheric reserves. It is looking for a way to find a work around that limitation that leads to Trance being discovered.

It was mainly in response to your statement "you pressed every button during a summoner's rotation" which no you did not, you used whichever rotation was needed be it ST or AOE.

[Rolder50]

I would like to think that the majority of people who are dissatisfied with new summoner aren't concerned so much with the theme and the "Is it a Summoner?" question, but the actual gameplay aspects that you have to work with every day in game. For myself, I think the new animations and all that are fantastic, I just really wish there were a couple more oGCD skills, or something with the summons where the order you summoned them had an impact in the rotation, anything to add some depth to the puddle we have now.

[mathias-merodach]

It was mainly in response to your statement "you pressed every button during a summoner's rotation" which no you did not, you used whichever rotation was needed be it ST or AOE.

I will completely admit, upon re-reading, my point was not clear. The meaning I failed to make was that every button had a purpose and was pressed at one point or another -- not that every single one tied into a singular rotation used at all times (Personally, I have had to use Titan's shield a handful of times to save my life in a dungeon. Mistakes were made. XD). I failed to make that distinction. It was also more to facilitate the comparison of ability usage vs Gemshine and Precious Brilliance being taken away by having them function like Astral Flare / Brand of Purgatory while still changing nothing with how it is currently played.

[Lilyth]

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed.

Sunk and failed? Oh boy, what a way to be extremely disrespectful towards people who liked the old SMN.

No, the old SMN didn't "fail", that's just a snarky way to celebrate that which you didn't like is no longer there.

In their own words, the development team reached a wall in further improving the Old SMN which was a class with already lots of aspects and variations to its gameplay. It's easy to understand how in order to further expand upon its current (old) arsenal you'd have to either add more buttons, and god forbid more complexity, or remove traits and skills in order to make room for new ones. Given SE's current stance of catering to the absolute lowest denominator, they not only chose the latter but also went with a complete rework since the problem of adding new abilities would eventually re-emerge with every new expansion, so what better way to solve this by wiping everything clean and starting over? It does make sense.

And by doing so they also had plenty of room to be as creative as possible with the new animations, so much so that they apparently forgot about the gameplay entirely. The end result was the new SMN existing at its most beautiful and horrible state at the same time. Heck, can you even call it a caster anymore when Samurai casts more often than it?

So yeah, they didn't suddently all gather up into a room and said "fuck old SMN I never liked it". There's a lot more layers to it.

[Atamis]

Sunk and failed? Oh boy, what a way to be extremely disrespectful towards people who liked the old SMN.

No, the old SMN didn't "fail", that's just a snarky way to celebrate that which you didn't like is no longer there.

Given SE's current stance of catering to the absolute lowest denominator, they not only chose the latter

Hypocrite.

[aveyond-dreams]

Perhaps fans of old SMN would more readily gain support for their cause if they stopped referring to fans of new and true SMN with those sort of phrases.

[Caduagm]

there was always that feeling of disconnect between its two kits, DoTs and summoning.

Not always, no. I would say that was true in 2.x and 5.x, because Aetherflow and by extension Fester (linked to dots) were just oGCDs disconnected from the whole rotation.
In 3.x and 4.x, however, by using Fester, you got Aethertrail Attunement to channel Bahamut's Aether and then to summon him, perfectly linking the importance of dots to summoning. The problem was that in 6.x they decided again to throw away that form of catching Aether to call forth the Primals. If the dots were disconnected before, Aetherflow is in its place now, which ironically goes against the core of the job: gathering Aether to summon.

[godvivec]

I like how people here think there is only overcomplicated and braindead. Only two possible variations of job design...

[SieyaM]

I will completely admit, upon re-reading, my point was not clear. The meaning I failed to make was that every button had a purpose and was pressed at one point or another -- not that every single one tied into a singular rotation used at all times (Personally, I have had to use Titan's shield a handful of times to save my life in a dungeon. Mistakes were made. XD). I failed to make that distinction. It was also more to facilitate the comparison of ability usage vs Gemshine and Precious Brilliance being taken away by having them function like Astral Flare / Brand of Purgatory while still changing nothing with how it is currently played.

The only reason I can see them remaining as they are, although a player would never really want to do this, is that you can still use Ruin III while having ifrit, titan, or garuda attunement and it will not cancel out your attunement. I cannot imagine a situation where you would want to use Ruin over Gemshine/Brilliance but as of right now it is a possibility. Maybe something about Ifrits cast time being so long and Ruin III being the standard 1.5s or something. Hard to say really.