Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Dyvid]

You have argued "Summoner = poison mage because Rydia!" multiple times across several threads. Exceptions do not a rule make. The time has come to accept this and move on.

The only one who keeps bringing up Poison Mage is you as a strawman defense for this horrible horrible job design. When people say they enjoyed pre 6.0 SMN you pounce on the whole DoTs like it was the only aspect of the job. I got bad bad news for you, it had multiple aspects to manage, which is most likely why they have a book as a weapon when "Traditionally FF Summoners didn't equip books, blah blah blah." The current design is akin to an intern's work with little thought to the jobs history or it's mechanics. It was a rush job and feels like a rush job; funny since 2.0 was a real rush job and that version of SMN had much more depth.

[ThorneDynasty]

No seriously, list of main line game summoner characters: Rydia, Garnet, Eiko, Yuna, did I miss someone? What are the options for a DPS? I guess they could make FF14 summoner dual wield pistols, that'd be a nice nod.

[dinnertime]

No seriously, list of main line game summoner characters: Rydia, Garnet, Eiko, Yuna, did I miss someone? What are the options for a DPS? I guess they could make FF14 summoner dual wield pistols, that'd be a nice nod.

FF3 and FF5 where it's mainly inspired from? FF Tactics or FF11, too. It's really obvious where the inspiration comes from if you compare the outfits itself.
Plus ALL of those characters are all-rounders, if not more damage-centric. Rydia is from a game where there's already an established White Mage who is Rosa. Same with Garnet who's with Eiko who is technically the White Mage of the game but can both summon. Yuna is established to be an offensive character in Dissidia games. etc.

Anyway this Bio/Miasma argument is really silly because DoTs stopped being the main focus of SMN's kit in Stormblood, more so in Shadowbringers. The rest has been about the summons themselves.
It's honestly hilarious how much these two spells bothered so many people over the years. It's not that serious.

[aveyond-dreams]

We get it. You like poison magic. Ask nicely and you'll probably get Necromancer in 7.0. Direct your energy into the proper discussion channels regarding future new jobs rather than endlessly fantasizing about a "Summoner" that should have never been and accept that what is here is here to stay. Any improvements and additions will and consistent with the new gameplay flow and theme. If you do not want to play as that, then please select one of the remaining 18 other jobs available to try.

[aveyond-dreams]

In addition, 14's Summons (aka Primals) actively affect and harm the environment from their very existence whereas in every other game they are just... there. Like, in 9, literally a castle just asleep that people live, train, and rule from. Or 6, where they, as Espers, sit around in a village in the own world and can actively fall in love with humans. So to say that 14's summoner should feel like all the others is just trying to force consistency upon a class that hasn't had much in the way of consistency across over 15 games outside of calling for something to do a thing.

You are correct in that the primals of FFXIV actively harm and drain the land of energy. And I would much rather be doing that using their signature abilities and trance direct damage spells than babysitting a stack of dots. Or worse, that era when "Ruination" was another thing to babysit. Also, Alexander is summoned *around* Castle Alexandria, it is not the castle itself.

The only one who keeps bringing up Poison Mage is you as a strawman defense for this horrible horrible job design. When people say they enjoyed pre 6.0 SMN you pounce on the whole DoTs like it was the only aspect of the job. I got bad bad news for you, it had multiple aspects to manage, which is most likely why they have a book as a weapon when "Traditionally FF Summoners didn't equip books, blah blah blah." The current design is akin to an intern's work with little thought to the jobs history or it's mechanics. It was a rush job and feels like a rush job; funny since 2.0 was a real rush job and that version of SMN had much more depth.

Cool story, the majority of players in game and outside your bubble disagree with your assessment of the present state of affairs. The dots were the most out of place part of Summoner's kit and made it feel like a Warlock whose poisons were more prominent than traditional Summon magic. No one cares that Summoner's weapon is a book. The current design is the result of the devs admitting there was no way forward with old Summoner. They took your ideas and ran with them for 8 years. That's a fantastic run by the way, but it's over now. It will get more abilities over time. If you do not want to wait, then you have the right to go play another job. Which is exactly what I ended up doing after dropping 5.0 Summoner in the trash after having levelled it as my first 80.

[Rolder50]

It will get more abilities over time. If you do not want to wait, then you have the right to go play another job. Which is exactly what I ended up doing after dropping 5.0 Summoner in the trash after having levelled it as my first 80.

Tell that to Machinist. People have been saying the same exact thing since 5.0 for them "Oh they'll add more buttons to make it more complex don't worry" And what did they get in Endwalker? One extra GCD that doesn't interact with anything else.

[rewd]

Tell that to Machinist. People have been saying the same exact thing since 5.0 for them "Oh they'll add more buttons to make it more complex don't worry" And what did they get in Endwalker? One extra GCD that doesn't interact with anything else.

I'm still waiting for the complexity on tanks and healers they were clearly going to add after 5.0 because what they did to them was clearly a basis to build upon and not the endgoal.

[mathias-merodach]

To the former, Alexander is actually rooted to castle Alexandria. If you watch the scene, you can see, as it is forming, the castle Alexandria shifting its own make up as it is Alexander is summoned. While you are corrected, and I was wrong that the castle and eidolon are one in the exact same, they are still joined
To the latter, you say this all the time. A class having dots does not connect or mean that something is a Warlock. However, hat is something that you just immediately jump to when someone brings up Summoner's dots. I do not want to ascribe motive to you, but it does bring up certain questions. Does that mean that Ninja was a warlock as well because it has a dot? That must also mean then that Paladin, with its two dots, must be a Warlock as well? That must also mean that a Madness Sorcerer in TOR is a Warlock as well? Warlocks are not just dots; it just equates to a magic user that draws their power from outside forces over their own. In my opinion, the dots made sense from not only the starting class of Arcanist, but because of what they would mean for both lore and in battle. Summoners became their own worst enemy which is why their power was eventually not enough to protect them. How might they have done that? Perhaps by wearing down masses of people that crossed them through poison and aether ruining abilities before shattering those that were still alive with their aether sucking Primals that they had bound to them. Warlocks are not just dots either. This is also further ties into the fact that summoner has not had a consistent enough identity to say that what 14's had been is inherently wrong. What we have traded is a class that had two amongst its other abilities to a Dungeons and Dragons Warlock that does nothing but spam Eldritch Blast and occasionally sending its Pact of the chain Imp out to go and do a flashy thing. And that is a play style that does not lend itself to doing much other than that one ability. And, as someone who only even bothered to experiment with casting classes because of old Summoner, if I wanted to see flashy animation Ruin mage I'd play 13 and put Lighting in caster mode.

[aveyond-dreams]

If you cannot see the comparison between FFXIV's "original" take on Summoner and WoW's Warlock thematic concept and general mechanics then by all means, do as you will. The similarities are obvious to no small amount of people.

In any case, Summoner with elemental nukes feels better than Summoner who "wears down the masses." All you need to do is read the mood of people beyond this sector of the forums to realize that. You view new Summoner as a ruin mage, I view it as Rydia/Garnet Summoner with its focus on elemental nukes and jewels. To each their own.

[mathias-merodach]

If you cannot see the comparison between FFXIV's "original" take on Summoner and WoW's Warlock thematic concept and general mechanics then by all means, do as you will. The similarities are obvious to no small amount of people.

In any case, Summoner with elemental nukes feels better than Summoner who "wears down the masses." All you need to do is read the mood of people beyond this sector of the forums to realize that. You view new Summoner as a ruin mage, I view it as Rydia/Garnet Summoner with its focus on elemental nukes and jewels. To each their own.

And that is your decision. But, you are making the -choice- to see it as such, but it is neither. Especially in this game where you kill bombs with Fire which is a spell that, in almost every other game, actually heals that enemy. You are making the -choice- to only see it as some WoW copied class. For what reasons, I don't know and I will not try to interpret. It is, however, obvious that you outright see that as a negative. However, the connections between them are surface level at best if the only thing you see of it is the dots. If you wanted to make it clearer, then yes, both make pacts with outside forces to channel their powers. WoW Warlocks, Demons. There is another class in this very game that does that: Scholar with their faeries. Demons and Primals are linked by the very notion of how they can affect individuals and how they can affect the world. The same thing for DnD Warlock: Demons, Celestials, Old Ones (Cthulu), Faeiries. If that is the foundation, then that must make every Jedi and Sith the Old Rebublic WoW Warlocks then too because they draw on the Force and have dots. That Primals and demons have the link to the caster is something that is intrinsically linked to how the writers developed the lore of summoning and Primals in FF14. And I have read the mood and the people that I have encountered and spoke to about the changes both understand why some do not like the changes and most were wtf at best and, at worst, not fond of them.