Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Madoka]

If you did the proper rotation, you hardcasted both once per 2 minutes during your downtime after FBT. Which also helped the ruin 3 filler not be as many ruin 3s and gave a weave window. And also every time you were in downscaled content, and had buttons to press besides Ruin and outburst. We even had this neat ability called Bane

[aveyond-dreams]

Oh I completely forgot about the old SMN experience in below 70 content, especially pre-50. I do not think a single job in game started off so boring and got needlessly so complex by the time you hit 80.

[Madoka]

Was more enjoyable than hitting the one aoe button the entire time.

[SieyaM]

I, personally, am glad that you are able to enjoy it. Changes to any class can be a good thing that draws a wider audience, makes the class better or tightens it ups. However, with changes will also come those that do not like them. It's clear to want your opinions to be respected but so should you be willing to respect those that disagree and not lump them in a category of negativity just because they do. What I will also say is that feedback is feedback; whether you find it -constructive- or not is based on your personal take. I, for one, do find it incredibly simplified or "dumbed down". to make an even further point on the clear simplification of the job, I'll bring up Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. They serve no purpose. Old Smn had a reason for every button to be there and they were all pressed at one point and tied into the entirety of one's rotation and the class's gameplay. With new Smn, there is no good reason for either ability to exist given their funtion, single target damage spell, AoE damage spell, that locks out the use Ruin 3 and Tri-disaster. We can see, from how they have done Bahamut and Phoenix, that R3 and Tri can be replaced by form attacks. Therefore, Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit could be made to function the same way through Riot and Catastrophe. It would literally change nothing about how the class would play while removing two MORE abilities off the hotbar.

Except for fester and painflare, if you were using one then you did not use the other. If I remember correctly you also didn't use Ifrit for AoE or Garuda for ST, so there are entire summons that you didn't use depending on the situation. Summoner also had, by no exaggeration, a 2 minute opener. That is just complexity for the sake of complexity. The previous iteration of summoner felt more like two jobs fighting each other for control, a DoT mage with it's abilities and a pet class with its abilities, although most of those just operated as spell casting by proxy.

[Madoka]

The opener was 15 GCDs, 2 minutes was the entire rotation. We're still technically on a 2 minute rotation now, you just don't do anything different unless you have enough Spell speed to need to delay Bahamut for Searing Light

[rewd]

People really need to learn the different between opener and rotation. It's quite telling that so many opinions about old SMN stem from misconceptions or ignorance.

[mathias-merodach]

Except for fester and painflare, if you were using one then you did not use the other. If I remember correctly you also didn't use Ifrit for AoE or Garuda for ST, so there are entire summons that you didn't use depending on the situation. Summoner also had, by no exaggeration, a 2 minute opener. That is just complexity for the sake of complexity. The previous iteration of summoner felt more like two jobs fighting each other for control, a DoT mage with it's abilities and a pet class with its abilities, although most of those just operated as spell casting by proxy.

I'm sorry but... I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with that comparison. Please forgive me if my response is incorrect but I'm going to try: you're bringing up summon usage and when one's were used, ST or AoE, depending on the situation as well as Fester/Painflare interactions. What I would then ask is how is that any different from any other class? I'll use DRG as an example. In an AoE situation, my basic rotation is 3 buttons over the 8 buttons I have for single target. So, to the best of my current understanding of your point, there are two entire combo lines made up of 5 buttons I don't press when I'm in an AoE situation and 3 I do not press when I'm in a ST situation. You use what is most applicable to the situation at hand for the maximum benefit. So, say for example, you have a mob of enemies. You had the single target of Aetherflow or the AoE of Energy Drain. You then used Painflare for the AoE. However, if most of the mobs were wiped, you could then use Fester (which did more damaged with your dots, which was only 2). You were not locked into using one or the other. Another example, lets say there was a particular enemy that needed to be burned down. You used Energy Drain and Fester. It died and you still had a charge and a bunch of enemies alive. Well, now you can use Painflare. You had options and interplay with your abilities. And, you only had -TWO- dots. That is the same number as Paladin. There was just one ability, Tri-disaster, that assisted by applying them both and once and one specifically, Bane, that spread them. I fully acknowledge that's how it felt to you, as well, but for me it made complete sense. You are an Arcanist that, along with Y'mitra, a Conjurer, are reconstructing a lost art with bits and pieces that you are slowly putting together with the only starting position you have being that which you already know: Arcanist magic. Then you go off to try and do a thing without a full understanding of the potential outcomes. That's why both WoL and Y'mitra don't first understand why you fail to attune to Ramuh. Neither of you have a clue that you can cap out your aetheric reserves. It is looking for a way to find a work around that limitation that leads to Trance being discovered.

[Warlyx]

I'm sorry but... I really do not understand the point you're trying to make with that comparison. Please forgive me if my response is incorrect but I'm going to try: you're bringing up summon usage and when one's were used, ST or AoE, depending on the situation as well as Fester/Painflare interactions. What I would then ask is how is that any different from any other class? I'll use DRG as an example. In an AoE situation, my basic rotation is 3 buttons over the 8 buttons I have for single target. So, to the best of my current understanding of your point, there are two entire combo lines made up of 5 buttons I don't press when I'm in an AoE situation and 3 I do not press when I'm in a ST situation. You use what is most applicable to the situation at hand for the maximum benefit. So, say for example, you have a mob of enemies. You had the single target of Aetherflow or the AoE of Energy Drain. You then used Painflare for the AoE. However, if most of the mobs were wiped, you could then use Fester (which did more damaged with your dots, which was only 2). You were not locked into using one or the other. Another example, lets say there was a particular enemy that needed to be burned down. You used Energy Drain and Fester. It died and you still had a charge and a bunch of enemies alive. Well, now you can use Painflare. You had options and interplay with your abilities. And, you only had -TWO- dots. That is the same number as Paladin. There was just one ability, Tri-disaster, that assisted by applying them both and once and one specifically, Bane, that spread them. I fully acknowledge that's how it felt to you, as well, but for me it made complete sense. You are an Arcanist that, along with Y'mitra, a Conjurer, are reconstructing a lost art with bits and pieces that you are slowly putting together with the only starting position you have being that which you already know: Arcanist magic. Then you go off to try and do a thing without a full understanding of the potential outcomes. That's why both WoL and Y'mitra don't first understand why you fail to attune to Ramuh. Neither of you have a clue that you can cap out your aetheric reserves. It is looking for a way to find a work around that limitation that leads to Trance being discovered.

excuse from SE , so they dont give smn ramuh

[mathias-merodach]

excuse from SE , so they dont give smn ramuh

I think it was definitely something that limited them and where they wrote themselves into a corner. Or, it's as you said so they don't have to give ramuh or any egi other egi glams for that matter. It could be written out of. Given what has been developed already, the WoL and Y'mitra could experiment with purging an attunement to free up aether for a new one. But that's more of a lore topic than class play discussion, I think xD.

[Anvaire]

You had me for a moment until the later parts and a bit in the beginning.

The summons feel even less meaningful in this inception of Summoner.
Right now it honestly feels like we've become a rather generic mage flinging around spells that happen to look like the primals, taking away any identity that we've had.

The rework was rushed and ill thought of, and just appeased the people that claim that carelessly flinging around a spell with a primal's effect = Summoner.

It's fine if you like it, but do understand where some of us are coming from and also that it wasn't just about the DoTs. The DoTs I liked because it was something relatively new to Summoner, no longer being coupled to either Black Mage/White mage. But now we're basically something that attempts being a mage while spectacularly failing at doing so. It has no identity right now.

I think in terms of Design and identity it does feel to me like being a summoner, because you do Summon simalcrums of the primals.

In terms of old summoner, i understand why people liked the dots, but that identity shrank over time, and eventually was divorced from the rest of the class. Every attempt that was made to make the dots synergize with the rest fo the kit ultimatly failed and was reworked. There is nothing wrong with a dot class, but being Heavy on dots + heavy on pets / summons didnt really work.

The current summoner identity resolves around evoking the primals and using their essence to fight. Im not sure what you mean by less meaningful in the sense that the entire rotation is a rotation of summons. The only thing i can think you mean is that the arcanum summons appear do stuff then vanish again. While demis sit and pew pew. Having Garuda, ifrit and titan remain would be ideal, but i think the reason they didnt is due to the carbuncle spells.

But if its you want the pets to be more like oG egis, then id rather take this rendition and the demi stystem. Yes they are, merely animations, but id take that and the possibility of a wider reptoire of summons in the future over the old system where we sat on a choice of one or the other.

I dont think its bad or wrong for someone to dislike new summoner, but i think if people want the old summoner, that ship has sunk and failed. There is only one case of SQEX ever going back on a rework, and that was Caster bard - and in reality they only removed cast times.

I dont agree that the Summoner lacks identity, its about summoning Simalcrums of primals and infusing their aether into the summoners own spells - I will concede that the summons are mostly animations and people who wanted an actual "pet" would find it unrewarding. But then the alternative is the janky pet ui and a limitation on what summons we can get.