Dark Knight Megathread

[Ryaduera]

I'm just comparing the two (a heal vs. a shield). The reactive element can complement the proactive, replacing the need for increased HP value per point outside of potential one-shots (which, unless greatly overgeared or doing only casual content, are a thing), but you need to survive the initial hit first. That might not require any mitigation in content you've seen thus far, but unless you want to turn all use of defensives into simple bonus Glare casts, irrelevant to actual tank survival, that difference will matter at some point.

That's awfully presumptions of you to say. Let's put it this way. I still have PTSD from Gordias Savage, so I don't want to hear "any content I've seen thus far". The server tick counting... Oh the horror... And Thordans eyes. Oh lord his eyes, no please god...

[EDIT] if you got that by looking at this characters job levels, this was a new character made to play with some friends on a different data center and is not indicative of my actual experience with this game, but I use this one because it is the one I will now exclusively use.

Don't get me wrong; I like reactive tanks. Such makes for, imo, much more enjoyable play as you have this 'zingier' sense of fighting for your life instead of just delaying the inevitable (even if, ultimately, you'd still die at the very same point, give or take self-healing ppgcd variance and (un)lucky timing, if wholly balanced).

But even that still changes a further aspect. That mitigation now increases max eHP for the next attack, whereas the cure will not. Will that be significant? Maybe, maybe not, but it is a difference -- the same one as always: max eHP increase and finite duration of eHP increase (since every mitigation skill is, yeah, generally tied to a maximum duration).

It's a fundamental difference but it yields identical results, since the cure that happens on HoC is instant, meaning it also instantly increases max eHP as part of the action. There is no functional difference, this is how it works in the games actual code.

That is "in effect, what is happening" only so long as the latter max eHP increase is irrelevant, just as for any other tankbuster. Games oughtn't design tanks, though, around such casual content as to make skill use irrelevant to surviving tankbusters. Or at least, if they don't want to rob tanks of a significant portion of their excitement.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've caught an auto after a tankbuster in difficult content... But it matters for more than just tank busters anyway. Anything that can be used to survive a buster will do regardless of what it leaves your HP at, but using it as an actual general mitigation tool as you should is where the measure becomes truly telling since every tank can indeed survive any tank buster because the balance team here is on point. Balance is not the issue with DRK.

Oh, I agree. That can sometimes maybe go a bit too far, as when trying to heal a Death Knight tank with a Holy Priest without decent enough cooldown trackers for said Death Knight, where some relevant waste is even guaranteed just due to possibly crit-healing at the same time, but having the moments where a tank's HP goes down but I can know "s/he's got this" and sure enough they heal themselves back up has a lot more... flair than just "Eh, 40% HP will still last them 8 more seconds. Glare. Glare. Glare." They 'should' be the same--and from the healer's end alone, except for some added constraints in large-heal timings, they are mostly the same--but they feel different.

No, not seem, seen, as in visually watching the healthbar jump.
This literally exists in Warrior. I don't think drain tanks necessarily belong in FFXIV. In terms of design, I like GNB healing wise because it's calculated and rhythmic healing, Aurora when consistent damage is coming and a charge is available, HoC between cooldowns unless a tankbuster or mechanic requiring it is expected. Not draining, but a general regeneration. PLD is similar but their self healing is built into their DPS rotation, so since it is naturally used less intentionally, it doesn't quite check that box of using it defensively and with defensive intent. For GNB, it's satisfying and rewarding, something that DRK is not.

Going to point out the accessibility of HoC is often not seen since most GNB players literally only use it for tank busters and also tend to not use it on the main tank. The same applies to TBN, but still worth pointing out, since I think I see GNB use HoC once every 60-90 seconds as opposed to rotating it as a regular part of their defensive cooldown rotation. I don't hate TBN because to be perfectly honest the dream is having both of these at the same time.

Nah, don't sell yourself short; there's actually some interesting interactions that it could put forward. I'm not sold on them, but I'll get to them as soon as I cover what I believe the existing state around TBN and its MP costs to be like, generally:

-snip-

Not really selling myself short, just if I were to sell this as an actual idea, I'd have to actually think about those interactions before claiming it as a proper idea. A good read though.

[Shurrikhan]

That's awfully presumptions of you to say.

Fair enough. I forgot that the forum accounts are separate from your general Square Enix account and you might therefore have started more than the above two months ago, and with one-shots (or bust-and-auto killers) having yet to get mentioned I did not check Lodestone first (though, looking at it now, I assume also that this is your alt?).

It's a fundamental difference but it yields identical results, since the cure that happens on HoC is instant, meaning it also instantly increases max eHP as part of the action. There is no functional difference.

That's a matter of context, not functionality. A 100,000-damage attack and 4,000 damage attack are "the same" if their target only has 4k HP. That doesn't mean their isn't a difference ready to go the moment you hit an enemy with 4,001 HP.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've caught an auto after a tankbuster in difficult content...

If there's not enough time to do anything between the two hits, they will act as one hit until you have something that can be woven between them (e.g., Catharsis, since it's not going to wait for human reaction times... though it still has a little delay of its own, sadly; I've certainly been AAed off before even it can go off).

No, not seem, seen, as in visually watching the healthbar jump.

Right. Sorry, my eyes have trouble catching small words; somehow I passed over the "be" both read-throughs.

This literally exists in Warrior. I don't think drain tanks necessarily belong in FFXIV. In terms of design, I like GNB healing wise because it's calculated and rhythmic healing, Aurora when damage is coming and a charge is available, HoC between cooldowns unless a tankbuster or mechanic requiring it is expected. Not draining, but a general regeneration. It's satisfying and rewarding, something that DRK is not.

Milage may vary. I find GNB more fun than Warrior in raids in every way but its defensive and healing setup, though I certainly enjoyed WAR's healing more when it better rewarded banking (in that its short-CD had a lower healing floor and slightly higher ST ceiling, all on a shorter duration).

...The only thing in DRK's kit, defensively, worth note to me are TBN, Oblation (kind of), and Abyssal Drain in AoE when my healer's... not great. And yet, for me, TBN and Oblation themselves faintly, faintly put it over GNB for me.

A good read though.

Sorry it got so ramble-y. I just did think it tapped a cool area, actual interaction design pending.

[Ryaduera]

-snip-

I have actually never enjoyed Warrior, even in 3.0 when it was... well, slightly less broken than it is now. I do realize that whichever tank you enjoy for whatever reason is going to be entirely opinion. I actually don't main GNB for that reason, but rather because I like noisy but calculated classes. As GNB everything has to fit within your 60s burst window and 30s window inbetween. It's fun and requires good awareness of both your abilities and the encounter. This is, of course, opinion, as similar things could be said about DRK ( why I want to love it, actually) because it is also noisy, it's just far less calculated and more of a "BURST WINDOW GO" kind of playstyle.DRK just feels left out. It doesn't have heals, it still suffers from the magic resistance gimmick (the only reason I dislike Dark Missionary is because it's literally Heart of Light, but you get it later). If they'd just fix Dark Mind I entirely believe it's defensive abilities would be fine, it just needs some love in its offensive abilities (not in damage, it is top right now) to make it overall more fun and satisfying and giving it a heal off of its offensive abilities would be great, something like a modernized Sole Survivor.

Also never forget they took Dark Dance away, reworked it to not be evasion but just damage reduction, kept the parry, renamed it Camouflage, and gave it to a different tank entirely.

[Shurrikhan]

I have actually never enjoyed Warrior, even in 3.0 when it was... well, slightly less broken than it is now. I do realize that whichever tank you enjoy for whatever reason is going to be entirely opinion. I actually don't main GNB for that reason, but rather because I like noisy but calculated classes. As GNB everything has to fit within your 60s burst window and 30s window inbetween.

At present, what with Double Down and whatnot, the only thing I'm really enjoying about GNB's lulls is that it helps to remember which are full lulls and which are Bloodfest lulls, and then either burn (apart from ensuring you'll have enough for GF combo when it comes up) or bank over the lull accordingly. (Because of that, I don't particularly hate Double Down, contrary to a lot of the flak it's been getting, as it doesn't really change what I'd be doing anyways.) The rest just feels so rigidly on-rails that it's not my cup of tea compared to, say, HW DRK, or any of various other MMOs' tanks. The 30s CDs, meanwhile, are just more click-on-CD filler to me. (For much the same reason, I never cared about Circle of Scorn outside its handy mob-grabbing while sprinting through dungeons, and cared even less about Spirit's Within once its HP interaction was removed.)

For me, DRK and WAR, rotationally, are on the opposite extreme; they're diarrhetic. Outside of banking for raid buffs, and not overcapping, nothing seems to matter. You just throw shit out there. (Of course, GNB is the same in that you just don't want to overcap and do want to maximize window, but at least there's enough desync between BF and NM to make it feel like there are distinct phases among and between bursts, whereas Enhanced Infuriate is a constant but negligible mechanic and, well, DRK has nothing that falls away from the 60s timers.)

I think that's the first thing that'd need to change about DRK: it needs something to look forward to over its lulls, and (imo) ideally that something shouldn't just be a simple hit-on-refresh (and not just because it'd be a combo-breaking GCD, either, as that just screws over downtime and most SkS tiers). After that, it ought to have more reason for varying the order of attacks in its bursts -- whatever reason that may be -- and more integral use of its resources, especially over its lulls.

Also never forget they took Dark Dance away, reworked it to not be evasion but just damage reduction, kept the parry, renamed it Camouflage, and gave it to a different tank entirely.

The saddest thing is that if ever I imagine some parry/dodge based counter-offensive mechanic, already I'll assume it should belong to GNB.

[Archwizard]

Abyssal Drain is a gain on 4 targets. Every tank AoEs at 3. It's weird for DRK to not use one of their AoE tools until 4 targets. DRK uses Flood and Quietus at 3. Why do they Drain at 4, and not 3? Increase Abyssal Drain potency.

I'd love to believe they'd increase the potency of AD by at least 20... but I get the feeling they'd look at it and cut C&S by at least 60p instead.

[VicariousXIV]

Another question; What exactly does the DRK community want more and which can be more realistically expected, a full rework of the job or just enough changes to help it in dungeons?

Cause I'm still seeing multiple people arguing that the DRK is fine, and please do not try and tell me "no one is claiming DRK is fine" again cause I just read through several pages with multiple people arguing that it's overall in a "fine" state.

Not the norm, but there are enough to have someone saying it on almost every page, to varying degrees.

But anyways, I mainly ask because I see a number of rework ideas that I agree with and disagree with on several different aspects for each, but what are the realistic chances we'll actually get one? DRK still retains high playrate for the casual base and is serviceable in extremes and savages, so even though I agree a rework SHOULD be the answer do we actually expect it to happen?

I'm not being facetious either, I'm actually seriously curious if this is a realistic possibility.

Cause from where I stand, I'd put money on small changes if any, but if there's reason to believe otherwise I'd welcome it.

Also can people stop requesting AD go back to costing 3000 MP? Dungeons would become AD spam, fuck Flood and TBN, let's just go full one-dimensional kit! Besides, there are better options to add sustain anyways.

[Ryaduera]

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that DRK should be a drain tank to be honest. It was kind of a drain tank in 3.0 but only in trash pulls, once you were against bosses Warrior was the drain tank, so it's a little strange to me that's where peoples thought processes go. Through FF history Dark Knight has had a bit of a mixed identity that has usually leaned towards being a damage class that actually sacrificed HP for damage with a few outliers. Even in Final Fantasy Tactics you faced a Dark Knight that drained HP, but when the released War of the Lions they renamed it to Fell Knight and introduced a Dark Knight as a playable class that was a mix between having a single drain ability and several abilities that cost HP, with the better damage being on the latter. Dark Knights were usually damage dealers with high HP pools, so being a tank in XIV is kind of an outlier on its own, but saying it has to be a drain tank is very strange to me, as much as I enjoy tanks with high heal values.

If we look at what a Dark Knight really is historically and lore wise in XIV, I can really see DRK being a barrier based tank. Dark Knights are from Ishgard, they dropped their shields in favor of the pure offensive value of the greatsword and at some point took up the dark arts. Being a barrier tank suits the Dark Knight in this regard. The job still has to function as a tank, but in terms of thematics it still has to be a tank that feels like it "dropped its shield for the sword". Rewarding shields being broken is a great way to capture this, but locking your offensive abilities behind it is strange and djanky. Imagine if Souleater worked like a reverse Brutal Shell. You hit a target with it and get a shield, when the shield breaks you heal for that value. It would have to be smaller than Brutal Shell for balance sake since a large portion of Brutal Shell heal potency is wasted on overheal and this hypothetical souleater would be significantly less likely to overheal, but it would be effective and unique while fitting the theme of a tank and basic sustain in its kit.

Then going with this idea of a barrier tank, it would also need more barriers than just TBN. Dark Mind should be changed to be more universally useful at the cost of strength. 20% for a unique cooldown is nice, but it's not nearly as applicable and I know many would trade the strong but rarely used gimmick for a weaker but useful ability. The Dark Knight as a tank that actually wants to take damage is not a terrible idea. Get hit but don't quit kind of thing. But again, leaning into the identity of a tank that actually wants to take damage, an ability like cover, but for multiple party members, would work incredibly well with shielding, especially on the context of a Dark Knight who still embraces the dark arts and abandon all defense to uphold justice and defend those who cannot defend themselves. Remember, the first Dark Knight was an Ishgardian from the Brume who had it with the hierarchy and was vengefully protecting his people, taking damage for your allies is a decent manifestation of this idea and it would also allow for DRK self-barriers it would have in this hypothetical situation to also be applied here as well. An identity where the DRK's form of mitigation is literally taking the hit full force and pressing on is pretty cool IMO.

It's also fairly recent in the games lore than Dark Knights actually took up Dark Arts, so the whole "lore" justification on keeping Living Dead the way it is is just a lazy excuse. It's not even good flavor for a job with this kind of history, it demands a healer but the Dark Knight never stood in front of healers. I twas an aggressor, not a defender, removing the source of suppression by putting itself in their lines rather than holding its own lines against them.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that DRK should be a drain tank to be honest. It was kind of a drain tank in 3.0 but only in trash pulls, once you were against bosses Warrior was the drain tank, so it's a little strange to me that's where peoples thought processes go. Through FF history Dark Knight has had a bit of a mixed identity that has usually leaned towards being a damage class that actually sacrificed HP for damage with a few outliers. Even in Final Fantasy Tactics you faced a Dark Knight that drained HP, but when the released War of the Lions they renamed it to Fell Knight and introduced a Dark Knight as a playable class that was a mix between having a single drain ability and several abilities that cost HP, with the better damage being on the latter. Dark Knights were usually damage dealers with high HP pools, so being a tank in XIV is kind of an outlier on its own, but saying it has to be a drain tank is very strange to me, as much as I enjoy tanks with high heal values.

Imagine if Souleater worked like a reverse Brutal Shell. You hit a target with it and get a shield, when the shield breaks you heal for that value.

Sounds good. The later healing being locked behind the initial break would keep it from having too much mitigation, so the skill wouldn't have to be de-tuned, but might also feel that wee bit more exciting than Brutal Shell.

...Let's please put it on something with some bankability, though, such as our Blood skills (and perhaps introduce a Blood skill far earlier in DRK's leveling process).

:: This "put the mitigation/healing on something bankable" idea would apply to Brutal Shell, too, since it likewise has no combo alternative. I'd really rather see Brutal Shell's healing and shield put on Burst Strike (and perhaps a heavy parry buff, for up to X damage thereby mitigated based on one's damage dealt, put on each strike (not overriding) of the Gnashing Fang combo just keep it still thematically ahead of the filler in all ways).

It's also fairly recent in the games lore than Dark Knights actually took up Dark Arts, so the whole "lore" justification on keeping Living Dead the way it is is just a lazy excuse. It's not even good flavor for a job with this kind of history, it demands a healer but the Dark Knight never stood in front of healers. I twas an aggressor, not a defender, removing the source of suppression by putting itself in their lines rather than holding its own lines against them.

Yeah. If anything, it might make the case for blocking the next <100% of HP> external healing to be received, penalty likely fading over time, while bringing the DRK back to full HP or massively increasing the DRK's own self-healing, etc. If there's anything "thematic" from which to design Living Dead, it should largely be that it want heals less than most tanks' immunities, not more.

[Weetzlo]

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that DRK should be a drain tank to be honest.

For me personally? Even though Dark Knights have been in FF since FF3, arguably 2, they were so often just "Warrior, but can cast spells." Even the icon of the job Cecil had just one unique ability "Spend 1/8 of your HP to use what totally looks like Flood of Shadow." The job really got it's flavor and identity from FF11 for my money and 14 is well aware of this. The effects are obviously different because it's a different game, but Stalwart Soul, Souleater, Hard Slash, Spinning Slash, and Power Slash are all DRK moves from 11. It's signature ability that it could only use once every hour was Blood Weapon and in that game it drained enemy HP with attacks, plus it was the only job to learn the spell "Drain" levels 2 and 3, one of the things it could do exclusively was use "Dread Spikes" which did a small drain attack against anyone that hit you while it was up so that's how I see DRK in my mind. HAVING SAID THAT, DRK wasn't even kind of a tank in 11, it was closer to 2.X DRG in 14 terms, where it wore some tank armor but it was a damage dealer for sure so it can't be an apples:apples comparison. I will say that I'm a proponent of the barrier idea because the first DRK in the 14 world was a PLD who cast away his shield because of the emblem, but PLDs know how to use magic so mirroring a spell like divine veil makes total perfect sense to me.

[Ryaduera]

For me personally? Even though Dark Knights have been in FF since FF3, arguably 2, they were so often just "Warrior, but can cast spells." Even the icon of the job Cecil had just one unique ability "Spend 1/8 of your HP to use what totally looks like Flood of Shadow." The job really got it's flavor and identity from FF11 for my money and 14 is well aware of this. The effects are obviously different because it's a different game, but Stalwart Soul, Souleater, Hard Slash, Spinning Slash, and Power Slash are all DRK moves from 11. It's signature ability that it could only use once every hour was Blood Weapon and in that game it drained enemy HP with attacks, plus it was the only job to learn the spell "Drain" levels 2 and 3, one of the things it could do exclusively was use "Dread Spikes" which did a small drain attack against anyone that hit you while it was up so that's how I see DRK in my mind. HAVING SAID THAT, DRK wasn't even kind of a tank in 11, it was closer to 2.X DRG in 14 terms, where it wore some tank armor but it was a damage dealer for sure so it can't be an apples:apples comparison. I will say that I'm a proponent of the barrier idea because the first DRK in the 14 world was a PLD who cast away his shield because of the emblem, but PLDs know how to use magic so mirroring a spell like divine veil makes total perfect sense to me.

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!