Dark Knight Megathread

[Archwizard]

If you want to see 'Dark Arts' in its original form, you would likely need something similar to MCH's PvP Analysis ability.

Ryu is right in that it would need to be free from resource costs and utility/defensive exclusive, or else the highest damage choice always wins out. The downside is that it reduces your weave space, although it could equally be implemented as a proc buff.

There is another flaw with the approach overall, however.

Analysis works because all of the skills it affects are on a short enough CD as to be basically rotational. Even in the case of the original Dark Arts, most of the skills it affected were also rotational or usable on-demand -- as was Dark Arts itself, provided you had the resources to spend on it.

If you have a CD which has the sole purpose of augmenting other CDs, particularly in a utilitarian sense to make them slightly stronger, then the second we have an issue from double-weaving the question will become "Why even have that bloat? Why not just roll the augmented effect into those CDs' base effects?"
Even on a charge system, it also creates a potential issue of CD misalignment negating the ability to use Dark Arts the way you would want, particularly if Dark Arts is usable on multiple abilities with differing CDs that you don't use in a normal alignment (such as a burst window).

Something we could rip from the original Dark Arts, however, is that most of the skills it affected either gained utilitarian effects or had them amplified: increased healing, inflict blind, bonus enmity. We could use a similar principle on a revival skill to prevent the above issue (augment on-demand combo skills and MP spenders), and provided that its effects avoid altering damage potencies and don't come out to a calculable damage gain, we maintain its use as a utilitarian skill.

Or, we go back to more of a classic Dark Arts system and make it the primary spammable MP spender so you can affect CDs at will without worrying about alignments. Still would have double-weaving and probably makes MP management way less interesting, don't recommend.

[Colt47]

I kind of want my Final Fantasy Tactics Sanguine Sword skill as a healing CD to match up with Abyssal Drain. Carve and Split restoring MP and Abyssal Drain restoring HP is just a really weird combination. That or maybe give DRK some kind of charge system that they can use for either TBN or a self heal depending on scenario. Like using Carve and Split or Abyssal Drain would give a charge.

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like Dark Arts wouldn't necessarily have to give no choice in offensive value... if the more defensive alternatives were just actually decent in practice.

Alas, that requires (A) tanks actually taking significant damage and (B) healers not doing virtually all healing for free and offensive GCD value being higher.

[Archwizard]

I feel like Dark Arts wouldn't necessarily have to give no choice in offensive value... if the more defensive alternatives were just actually decent in practice.

Alas, that requires (A) tanks actually taking significant damage and (B) healers not doing virtually all healing for free and offensive GCD value being higher.

Optimistic as that sounds, I fail to see a reality where that is not only possible but likely. We have enough historical precedent from things like Displacement, Jump, the old tank combos, any time healers or DPS choose "greed"... to foresee that the choice of "damage vs survival" is more like "default to damage until that bites you in the ass (healers adjust)", and at best creates scenarios where your "choice" is forced for you until your gear outmodes the survival option.

Within the scope of a DRK discussion, that simply ain't happening. And beyond this scope, it would require a redesign of the entire "everyone, even healers, must optimize damage" philosophy of encounter design.

[Runeslayer]

On an unrelated note to kit brainstorming, I had a thought that maybe they could shift design encounters to be more role centric than the 'everyone must do DPS' we have now.

I hear often that most content in the game is piss easy and is possible to complete with little regard to your actual rotation or skill interactions. I have a very loose idea that perhaps enrages and overall health pools are eased upon, but as a result engagements are no longer about 'DPS is everyone's priority' and moreso 'lean into your role more'. Autoattacks are chunky and need consistent mitigations and heals, raidwides are scarier, etc.

Higher level content already does this, but they're also mechanically and execution intensive which would be the main differing factor from normal stuff.

What do people think about this direction, and the subsequent changes classes might theoretically go through to acclimate? Or do people like being off brand DPS with a side of role. Maybe you think the overall direction is a good idea, but have different thoughts on how to achieve it through specifics?

[RyuDragnier]

On an unrelated note to kit brainstorming, I had a thought that maybe they could shift design encounters to be more role centric than the 'everyone must do DPS' we have now.

I hear often that most content in the game is piss easy and is possible to complete with little regard to your actual rotation or skill interactions. I have a very loose idea that perhaps enrages and overall health pools are eased upon, but as a result engagements are no longer about 'DPS is everyone's priority' and moreso 'lean into your role more'. Autoattacks are chunky and need consistent mitigations and heals, raidwides are scarier, etc.

Higher level content already does this, but they're also mechanically and execution intensive which would be the main differing factor from normal stuff.

What do people think about this direction, and the subsequent changes classes might theoretically go through to acclimate? Or do people like being off brand DPS with a side of role. Maybe you think the overall direction is a good idea, but have different thoughts on how to achieve it through specifics?

You just described 2.x and 3.x era. That's exactly how it worked back then, and was removed because it was, and I quote, "Too hard." Which is ironic because that's when SCH and DRK were at the top of their game.

[Shurrikhan]

You just described 2.x and 3.x era. That's exactly how it worked back then, and was removed because it was, and I quote, "Too hard." Which is ironic because that's when SCH and DRK were at the top of their game.

Gordias Savage and Thordan Ex on release aside, when was HW popularly described as "too hard"?

It was sometimes described as clunky, and shit like acquiring Wheeling Thrust being a nerf to one's kit (because you could then no longer pre-position for positionals after FT/CT) or seemingly physical attacks going through Shelltron because they were actually magical (despite being literal spear-throws), etc., were described variously as "rough" and "annoying." But, "too hard"?

[baklava151]

Well for starters, they could give more opportunities to use Interject and Low Blow since they rarely get touched. Also more adds outside of dedicated add phases for the OT to deal with, or other ways for the OT to actually tank sometimes and not be just another melee DPS for most of the fight.

[ItsUrBoi]

Well for starters, they could give more opportunities to use Interject and Low Blow since they rarely get touched. Also more adds outside of dedicated add phases for the OT to deal with, or other ways for the OT to actually tank sometimes and not be just another melee DPS for most of the fight.

You just described the DSR ultinate

[baklava151]

You just described the DSR ultinate

Man I'd love to try it but I'm not ready to spend that much time progging.