Dark Knight Megathread

[Ryaduera]

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that DRK should be a drain tank to be honest. It was kind of a drain tank in 3.0 but only in trash pulls, once you were against bosses Warrior was the drain tank, so it's a little strange to me that's where peoples thought processes go. Through FF history Dark Knight has had a bit of a mixed identity that has usually leaned towards being a damage class that actually sacrificed HP for damage with a few outliers. Even in Final Fantasy Tactics you faced a Dark Knight that drained HP, but when the released War of the Lions they renamed it to Fell Knight and introduced a Dark Knight as a playable class that was a mix between having a single drain ability and several abilities that cost HP, with the better damage being on the latter. Dark Knights were usually damage dealers with high HP pools, so being a tank in XIV is kind of an outlier on its own, but saying it has to be a drain tank is very strange to me, as much as I enjoy tanks with high heal values.

If we look at what a Dark Knight really is historically and lore wise in XIV, I can really see DRK being a barrier based tank. Dark Knights are from Ishgard, they dropped their shields in favor of the pure offensive value of the greatsword and at some point took up the dark arts. Being a barrier tank suits the Dark Knight in this regard. The job still has to function as a tank, but in terms of thematics it still has to be a tank that feels like it "dropped its shield for the sword". Rewarding shields being broken is a great way to capture this, but locking your offensive abilities behind it is strange and djanky. Imagine if Souleater worked like a reverse Brutal Shell. You hit a target with it and get a shield, when the shield breaks you heal for that value. It would have to be smaller than Brutal Shell for balance sake since a large portion of Brutal Shell heal potency is wasted on overheal and this hypothetical souleater would be significantly less likely to overheal, but it would be effective and unique while fitting the theme of a tank and basic sustain in its kit.

Then going with this idea of a barrier tank, it would also need more barriers than just TBN. Dark Mind should be changed to be more universally useful at the cost of strength. 20% for a unique cooldown is nice, but it's not nearly as applicable and I know many would trade the strong but rarely used gimmick for a weaker but useful ability. The Dark Knight as a tank that actually wants to take damage is not a terrible idea. Get hit but don't quit kind of thing. But again, leaning into the identity of a tank that actually wants to take damage, an ability like cover, but for multiple party members, would work incredibly well with shielding, especially on the context of a Dark Knight who still embraces the dark arts and abandon all defense to uphold justice and defend those who cannot defend themselves. Remember, the first Dark Knight was an Ishgardian from the Brume who had it with the hierarchy and was vengefully protecting his people, taking damage for your allies is a decent manifestation of this idea and it would also allow for DRK self-barriers it would have in this hypothetical situation to also be applied here as well. An identity where the DRK's form of mitigation is literally taking the hit full force and pressing on is pretty cool IMO.

It's also fairly recent in the games lore than Dark Knights actually took up Dark Arts, so the whole "lore" justification on keeping Living Dead the way it is is just a lazy excuse. It's not even good flavor for a job with this kind of history, it demands a healer but the Dark Knight never stood in front of healers. I twas an aggressor, not a defender, removing the source of suppression by putting itself in their lines rather than holding its own lines against them.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that DRK should be a drain tank to be honest. It was kind of a drain tank in 3.0 but only in trash pulls, once you were against bosses Warrior was the drain tank, so it's a little strange to me that's where peoples thought processes go. Through FF history Dark Knight has had a bit of a mixed identity that has usually leaned towards being a damage class that actually sacrificed HP for damage with a few outliers. Even in Final Fantasy Tactics you faced a Dark Knight that drained HP, but when the released War of the Lions they renamed it to Fell Knight and introduced a Dark Knight as a playable class that was a mix between having a single drain ability and several abilities that cost HP, with the better damage being on the latter. Dark Knights were usually damage dealers with high HP pools, so being a tank in XIV is kind of an outlier on its own, but saying it has to be a drain tank is very strange to me, as much as I enjoy tanks with high heal values.

Imagine if Souleater worked like a reverse Brutal Shell. You hit a target with it and get a shield, when the shield breaks you heal for that value.

Sounds good. The later healing being locked behind the initial break would keep it from having too much mitigation, so the skill wouldn't have to be de-tuned, but might also feel that wee bit more exciting than Brutal Shell.

...Let's please put it on something with some bankability, though, such as our Blood skills (and perhaps introduce a Blood skill far earlier in DRK's leveling process).

:: This "put the mitigation/healing on something bankable" idea would apply to Brutal Shell, too, since it likewise has no combo alternative. I'd really rather see Brutal Shell's healing and shield put on Burst Strike (and perhaps a heavy parry buff, for up to X damage thereby mitigated based on one's damage dealt, put on each strike (not overriding) of the Gnashing Fang combo just keep it still thematically ahead of the filler in all ways).

It's also fairly recent in the games lore than Dark Knights actually took up Dark Arts, so the whole "lore" justification on keeping Living Dead the way it is is just a lazy excuse. It's not even good flavor for a job with this kind of history, it demands a healer but the Dark Knight never stood in front of healers. I twas an aggressor, not a defender, removing the source of suppression by putting itself in their lines rather than holding its own lines against them.

Yeah. If anything, it might make the case for blocking the next <100% of HP> external healing to be received, penalty likely fading over time, while bringing the DRK back to full HP or massively increasing the DRK's own self-healing, etc. If there's anything "thematic" from which to design Living Dead, it should largely be that it want heals less than most tanks' immunities, not more.

[Weetzlo]

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that DRK should be a drain tank to be honest.

For me personally? Even though Dark Knights have been in FF since FF3, arguably 2, they were so often just "Warrior, but can cast spells." Even the icon of the job Cecil had just one unique ability "Spend 1/8 of your HP to use what totally looks like Flood of Shadow." The job really got it's flavor and identity from FF11 for my money and 14 is well aware of this. The effects are obviously different because it's a different game, but Stalwart Soul, Souleater, Hard Slash, Spinning Slash, and Power Slash are all DRK moves from 11. It's signature ability that it could only use once every hour was Blood Weapon and in that game it drained enemy HP with attacks, plus it was the only job to learn the spell "Drain" levels 2 and 3, one of the things it could do exclusively was use "Dread Spikes" which did a small drain attack against anyone that hit you while it was up so that's how I see DRK in my mind. HAVING SAID THAT, DRK wasn't even kind of a tank in 11, it was closer to 2.X DRG in 14 terms, where it wore some tank armor but it was a damage dealer for sure so it can't be an apples:apples comparison. I will say that I'm a proponent of the barrier idea because the first DRK in the 14 world was a PLD who cast away his shield because of the emblem, but PLDs know how to use magic so mirroring a spell like divine veil makes total perfect sense to me.

[Ryaduera]

For me personally? Even though Dark Knights have been in FF since FF3, arguably 2, they were so often just "Warrior, but can cast spells." Even the icon of the job Cecil had just one unique ability "Spend 1/8 of your HP to use what totally looks like Flood of Shadow." The job really got it's flavor and identity from FF11 for my money and 14 is well aware of this. The effects are obviously different because it's a different game, but Stalwart Soul, Souleater, Hard Slash, Spinning Slash, and Power Slash are all DRK moves from 11. It's signature ability that it could only use once every hour was Blood Weapon and in that game it drained enemy HP with attacks, plus it was the only job to learn the spell "Drain" levels 2 and 3, one of the things it could do exclusively was use "Dread Spikes" which did a small drain attack against anyone that hit you while it was up so that's how I see DRK in my mind. HAVING SAID THAT, DRK wasn't even kind of a tank in 11, it was closer to 2.X DRG in 14 terms, where it wore some tank armor but it was a damage dealer for sure so it can't be an apples:apples comparison. I will say that I'm a proponent of the barrier idea because the first DRK in the 14 world was a PLD who cast away his shield because of the emblem, but PLDs know how to use magic so mirroring a spell like divine veil makes total perfect sense to me.

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!

[RyuDragnier]

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!

The Blood part of that is also why people have been pushing for Blood Gauge spenders to heal, you're technically using stored up blood, so why not have a heal attached to them? Doesn't need to be a strong one, 400 potency per use (not per hit) would work.

[Shurrikhan]

The Blood part of that is also why people have been pushing for Blood Gauge spenders to heal, you're technically using stored up blood, so why not have a heal attached to them? Doesn't need to be a strong one, 400 potency per use (not per hit) would work.

I take it that is just to keep Quietus from Bloodwhetting levels of brokenness?
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Related lore-ish question: Has Souleater always (prior to XIV) been an HP-spender nuke? It seems also that HP-spenders are far more prominent than drains.

And a hot take: I honestly think it'd be fine for DRK to spend HP so long as it also had that much better a way than other tanks to bank and deploy self-healing. Such would allow for reduced healing waste, moving healing needs from damage spikes, to which the DRK could shuffle HP such that healers need spend less time on them (especially, when they'd rather be healing the raid) than on most tanks, to damage lulls, where oGCDs, Kardia, and HoTs could otherwise overcap.

[RyuDragnier]

I take it that is just to keep Quietus from Bloodwhetting levels of brokenness?
____________

Related lore-ish question: Has Souleater always (prior to XIV) been an HP-spender nuke? It seems also that HP-spenders are far more prominent than drains.

And a hot take: I honestly think it'd be fine for DRK to spend HP so long as it also had that much better a way than other tanks to bank and deploy self-healing. Such would allow for reduced healing waste, moving healing needs from damage spikes, to which the DRK could shuffle HP such that healers need spend less time on them (especially, when they'd rather be healing the raid) than on most tanks, to damage lulls, where oGCDs, Kardia, and HoTs could otherwise overcap.

Not only to prevent Bloodwhetting levels of brokeness, but also because Abyssal Drain covers the "per hit" function...though I really wish Abyssal Drain was 300 cure potency instead of 200 cure potency (and also 200 instead of 150 for damage).

On lore response, yes, Souleater has ALWAYS been an HP-spender for big damage, as it is known by another name for old FFIV players...Darkness.

I think the Blood gauge was their answer to "spending HP" without actually making us spend it, since Souleater (which normally drains the user's HP) gives us Blood gauge.

[Shurrikhan]

I think the Blood gauge was their answer to "spending HP" without actually making us spend it, since Souleater (which normally drains the user's HP) gives us Blood gauge.

Though it sadly gives the HP in the same move, and is therefore limited by (in balance for) being available, initially, every third GCD, such that Blood skills actually then reduce our healing over time and that healing never feels choiceful, timeable, or significant. A less frequently available, bankable skill, on the other hand, could feel far more powerful and skillful*.

But on that larger note of "HP-spending", I could perhaps see why you wouldn't, with so many parse-minded players out there, want to give HP-spending to a DPS since it'd just then more than likely be balanced around dealing its normal dps only when hooked up to rolling HoTs (and just a weaker DPS otherwise when not awkwardly constraining healer actions), but on a tank, when you have different periods under which that HP is more vital and other periods where it can go to waste... HP manipulation seems a fine and fitting mechanic.

[Weetzlo]

I never played 11 so this is actually very helpful insight. It's also worth pointing out that "Blood Weapons" throughout FF history is a weapon which drains life from enemies, so I understand the idea of locking healing behind this single skill, but even if that were to happen it would hardly make DRK a drain tank for the same reason that PLD healing doesn't, it's locked behind offensive abilities (turn MP into DPS) so it's not used as a response to damage. Helpful insights to the origin of this thought, though!

Honestly, if you're ever feeling like you've done everything between patches, try 11 out. It's a different type of MMO altogether for a whole bunch of reasons but it's also weirdly similar and you might get a kick out of seeing some of these origins. Avoiding any spoilery stuff, 11 has a city state of french inspired, highly religious elves who have a great reverence for their dead famous dragoon king. It also has a middle eastern inspired city state and the Sultana/Empress' most loyal servant is Raubahn, leader of the The Immortals. The twist is that Not-Ishgard is one of the 3 starting zones and Not-Ul'Dah is the isolationist that opens up in an expansion pack.

If you've ever wondered why AI companions are called the Trust system here in XIV, it's because in 11 there's Trust Magic that just lets you summon a copy of someone you trust.

In terms of jobs, 14 DRK is like half 11 DRK and half a job called "Rune Fencer" which was the anti-magic tank in 11, but also now the half of 11 DRK that didn't make it into 14 DRK became RPR so that's neat.

I love 11 a whole lot and just had to gush about it off topic for a second, sorry

[RyuDragnier]

I love 11 a whole lot and just had to gush about it off topic for a second, sorry

Making me miss playing it...except for the undead, I HATE fighting against them as a DRK...that accursed "Reverse" status they have with drain magic. Really wish they'd do a "bundle" with FFXIV so I can play both without spending $30 a month.