Dark Knight Megathread

[Ryaduera]

I'm just comparing the two (a heal vs. a shield). The reactive element can complement the proactive, replacing the need for increased HP value per point outside of potential one-shots (which, unless greatly overgeared or doing only casual content, are a thing), but you need to survive the initial hit first. That might not require any mitigation in content you've seen thus far, but unless you want to turn all use of defensives into simple bonus Glare casts, irrelevant to actual tank survival, that difference will matter at some point.

That's awfully presumptions of you to say. Let's put it this way. I still have PTSD from Gordias Savage, so I don't want to hear "any content I've seen thus far". The server tick counting... Oh the horror... And Thordans eyes. Oh lord his eyes, no please god...

[EDIT] if you got that by looking at this characters job levels, this was a new character made to play with some friends on a different data center and is not indicative of my actual experience with this game, but I use this one because it is the one I will now exclusively use.

Don't get me wrong; I like reactive tanks. Such makes for, imo, much more enjoyable play as you have this 'zingier' sense of fighting for your life instead of just delaying the inevitable (even if, ultimately, you'd still die at the very same point, give or take self-healing ppgcd variance and (un)lucky timing, if wholly balanced).

But even that still changes a further aspect. That mitigation now increases max eHP for the next attack, whereas the cure will not. Will that be significant? Maybe, maybe not, but it is a difference -- the same one as always: max eHP increase and finite duration of eHP increase (since every mitigation skill is, yeah, generally tied to a maximum duration).

It's a fundamental difference but it yields identical results, since the cure that happens on HoC is instant, meaning it also instantly increases max eHP as part of the action. There is no functional difference, this is how it works in the games actual code.

That is "in effect, what is happening" only so long as the latter max eHP increase is irrelevant, just as for any other tankbuster. Games oughtn't design tanks, though, around such casual content as to make skill use irrelevant to surviving tankbusters. Or at least, if they don't want to rob tanks of a significant portion of their excitement.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've caught an auto after a tankbuster in difficult content... But it matters for more than just tank busters anyway. Anything that can be used to survive a buster will do regardless of what it leaves your HP at, but using it as an actual general mitigation tool as you should is where the measure becomes truly telling since every tank can indeed survive any tank buster because the balance team here is on point. Balance is not the issue with DRK.

Oh, I agree. That can sometimes maybe go a bit too far, as when trying to heal a Death Knight tank with a Holy Priest without decent enough cooldown trackers for said Death Knight, where some relevant waste is even guaranteed just due to possibly crit-healing at the same time, but having the moments where a tank's HP goes down but I can know "s/he's got this" and sure enough they heal themselves back up has a lot more... flair than just "Eh, 40% HP will still last them 8 more seconds. Glare. Glare. Glare." They 'should' be the same--and from the healer's end alone, except for some added constraints in large-heal timings, they are mostly the same--but they feel different.

No, not seem, seen, as in visually watching the healthbar jump.
This literally exists in Warrior. I don't think drain tanks necessarily belong in FFXIV. In terms of design, I like GNB healing wise because it's calculated and rhythmic healing, Aurora when consistent damage is coming and a charge is available, HoC between cooldowns unless a tankbuster or mechanic requiring it is expected. Not draining, but a general regeneration. PLD is similar but their self healing is built into their DPS rotation, so since it is naturally used less intentionally, it doesn't quite check that box of using it defensively and with defensive intent. For GNB, it's satisfying and rewarding, something that DRK is not.

Going to point out the accessibility of HoC is often not seen since most GNB players literally only use it for tank busters and also tend to not use it on the main tank. The same applies to TBN, but still worth pointing out, since I think I see GNB use HoC once every 60-90 seconds as opposed to rotating it as a regular part of their defensive cooldown rotation. I don't hate TBN because to be perfectly honest the dream is having both of these at the same time.

Nah, don't sell yourself short; there's actually some interesting interactions that it could put forward. I'm not sold on them, but I'll get to them as soon as I cover what I believe the existing state around TBN and its MP costs to be like, generally:

-snip-

Not really selling myself short, just if I were to sell this as an actual idea, I'd have to actually think about those interactions before claiming it as a proper idea. A good read though.

[Shurrikhan]

That's awfully presumptions of you to say.

Fair enough. I forgot that the forum accounts are separate from your general Square Enix account and you might therefore have started more than the above two months ago, and with one-shots (or bust-and-auto killers) having yet to get mentioned I did not check Lodestone first (though, looking at it now, I assume also that this is your alt?).

It's a fundamental difference but it yields identical results, since the cure that happens on HoC is instant, meaning it also instantly increases max eHP as part of the action. There is no functional difference.

That's a matter of context, not functionality. A 100,000-damage attack and 4,000 damage attack are "the same" if their target only has 4k HP. That doesn't mean their isn't a difference ready to go the moment you hit an enemy with 4,001 HP.

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've caught an auto after a tankbuster in difficult content...

If there's not enough time to do anything between the two hits, they will act as one hit until you have something that can be woven between them (e.g., Catharsis, since it's not going to wait for human reaction times... though it still has a little delay of its own, sadly; I've certainly been AAed off before even it can go off).

No, not seem, seen, as in visually watching the healthbar jump.

Right. Sorry, my eyes have trouble catching small words; somehow I passed over the "be" both read-throughs.

This literally exists in Warrior. I don't think drain tanks necessarily belong in FFXIV. In terms of design, I like GNB healing wise because it's calculated and rhythmic healing, Aurora when damage is coming and a charge is available, HoC between cooldowns unless a tankbuster or mechanic requiring it is expected. Not draining, but a general regeneration. It's satisfying and rewarding, something that DRK is not.

Milage may vary. I find GNB more fun than Warrior in raids in every way but its defensive and healing setup, though I certainly enjoyed WAR's healing more when it better rewarded banking (in that its short-CD had a lower healing floor and slightly higher ST ceiling, all on a shorter duration).

...The only thing in DRK's kit, defensively, worth note to me are TBN, Oblation (kind of), and Abyssal Drain in AoE when my healer's... not great. And yet, for me, TBN and Oblation themselves faintly, faintly put it over GNB for me.

A good read though.

Sorry it got so ramble-y. I just did think it tapped a cool area, actual interaction design pending.

[Ryaduera]

-snip-

I have actually never enjoyed Warrior, even in 3.0 when it was... well, slightly less broken than it is now. I do realize that whichever tank you enjoy for whatever reason is going to be entirely opinion. I actually don't main GNB for that reason, but rather because I like noisy but calculated classes. As GNB everything has to fit within your 60s burst window and 30s window inbetween. It's fun and requires good awareness of both your abilities and the encounter. This is, of course, opinion, as similar things could be said about DRK ( why I want to love it, actually) because it is also noisy, it's just far less calculated and more of a "BURST WINDOW GO" kind of playstyle.DRK just feels left out. It doesn't have heals, it still suffers from the magic resistance gimmick (the only reason I dislike Dark Missionary is because it's literally Heart of Light, but you get it later). If they'd just fix Dark Mind I entirely believe it's defensive abilities would be fine, it just needs some love in its offensive abilities (not in damage, it is top right now) to make it overall more fun and satisfying and giving it a heal off of its offensive abilities would be great, something like a modernized Sole Survivor.

Also never forget they took Dark Dance away, reworked it to not be evasion but just damage reduction, kept the parry, renamed it Camouflage, and gave it to a different tank entirely.

[Shurrikhan]

I have actually never enjoyed Warrior, even in 3.0 when it was... well, slightly less broken than it is now. I do realize that whichever tank you enjoy for whatever reason is going to be entirely opinion. I actually don't main GNB for that reason, but rather because I like noisy but calculated classes. As GNB everything has to fit within your 60s burst window and 30s window inbetween.

At present, what with Double Down and whatnot, the only thing I'm really enjoying about GNB's lulls is that it helps to remember which are full lulls and which are Bloodfest lulls, and then either burn (apart from ensuring you'll have enough for GF combo when it comes up) or bank over the lull accordingly. (Because of that, I don't particularly hate Double Down, contrary to a lot of the flak it's been getting, as it doesn't really change what I'd be doing anyways.) The rest just feels so rigidly on-rails that it's not my cup of tea compared to, say, HW DRK, or any of various other MMOs' tanks. The 30s CDs, meanwhile, are just more click-on-CD filler to me. (For much the same reason, I never cared about Circle of Scorn outside its handy mob-grabbing while sprinting through dungeons, and cared even less about Spirit's Within once its HP interaction was removed.)

For me, DRK and WAR, rotationally, are on the opposite extreme; they're diarrhetic. Outside of banking for raid buffs, and not overcapping, nothing seems to matter. You just throw shit out there. (Of course, GNB is the same in that you just don't want to overcap and do want to maximize window, but at least there's enough desync between BF and NM to make it feel like there are distinct phases among and between bursts, whereas Enhanced Infuriate is a constant but negligible mechanic and, well, DRK has nothing that falls away from the 60s timers.)

I think that's the first thing that'd need to change about DRK: it needs something to look forward to over its lulls, and (imo) ideally that something shouldn't just be a simple hit-on-refresh (and not just because it'd be a combo-breaking GCD, either, as that just screws over downtime and most SkS tiers). After that, it ought to have more reason for varying the order of attacks in its bursts -- whatever reason that may be -- and more integral use of its resources, especially over its lulls.

Also never forget they took Dark Dance away, reworked it to not be evasion but just damage reduction, kept the parry, renamed it Camouflage, and gave it to a different tank entirely.

The saddest thing is that if ever I imagine some parry/dodge based counter-offensive mechanic, already I'll assume it should belong to GNB.