[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[MirronTulaxia]

I really don’t see the mirror to the WoL with Zenos. The WoL may enjoy combat to some extent but that’s a far cry from orchestrating mass destruction for the sake of one. And the WoL clearly enjoys non combat things as well, you’re able to be just as good at crafting and gathering as you are at combat. It just feels very… railroading, for no positive reason. And ends the big capstone on a negative note for me. Drop Zenos and frankly I probably would have no major issues with Endwalker, would resolve Asahi shoehorning himself into a poignant moment as well.

[Lyth]

Whenever Shinryu tries to hold a conversation, it reminds me of Bowser.

Overall, I like what they've done with Zenos. He's a grounding figure, being the only member of the cast actually capable of properly standing toe to toe against you. Everyone else is too busy venerating you. It's that same feeling that you get with Seifer in FF8. You probably won't ever come to an agreement on anything, but deep down there's an understanding. They should add him to everyone's friend list on completion of the MSQ as your 201st slot, with the caveat that you can't remove him.

'DO YOU WANT ZENOS TO JOIN THE PARTY?'
>>NO.
'ZENOS JOINS THE PARTY ANYWAYS!'

I'm sure that we haven't seen the last of him. He's probably busy working off his indentured servitude to Jammingway at the Last Dregs.

[Loggos]

Personally I agree with the Wol and Zenos mirror analogy. It doesnt not mean they are the same but they are twisted reflections of each other. On that sense no one understand them better than the other

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL that are mentioned on the DRK quests. They both enjoy the thrill of battle, the challenge to reach even higher, but the reasoning behind is not the same, because Zenos seeks only his own enjoyment, while the WoL even if part of them enjoy the fight itself they also have other reasons to do so and find their own satisfaction in other things like friendship, curiosity (Venat and the Wol are stated to have a huge curiosity) etc.

To Zenos he eventually comes to the realization that despite them being the same, the Wol is generally satisfied with their life instead of feeling dull and bored most of their time, so they not desperate like him for a rematch, specially when the WoL is focusing on the End of Days and Zenos is at most an annoyance. So he decides to help him out for several reasons:

Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him and if they still refuse he will acept his friend decision (Zenos DO have a sense of honor albeit twisted)
He finally look at himself and realizes how empty his existence is and on a sense he ENVIES the WoL because despite their power they found their place in life. The Wol has lots of things that give them pleasure while he only has a fleeting one.

Their final fight is not a combat but a dialog about their ways of life, powering both to the limit with the power of dynamis.

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL persona, parts that are usually supressed due to their morality (but still there like the DRK quests clearly show), while the WoL to Zenos eventually becomes what he could have became himself if instead of being isolated his entire life he found companions and learned to live

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

I would argue that this analogy is not objective though. Like I said, it's completely fair if people consider their own WoL as a mirror to Zenos but from a narrative point of view I really don't think that this is The interpretation of their relationship.

This is why I disagree when you say "Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him.". I think people who don't like him have plenty of reasons not to fight him, ever.
For example because we don't plan to give him the only thing he wants, because he is so cruel that we don't even want to give him any of the attention that he craves etc. (There are more examples in this thread.)

Again, I don't meant to say at all that this perspective is the "correct" interpretation either. I just think, as people said before me, the mirror as an objective analogy doesn't really work for blank-slate characters. It's more for characters the story completely defines for you.

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Lastly, I disagree with the Darkknight analogy. The themes of the DRK quest are completely different and entirely unrelated to Zenos' philosophy in my eyes.

(Sorry for the wall of text but the DRK quests, esp. the first one, are my favourite job quests, haha. So I'm kinda emotionally invested in them. orz

I'll put it behind the spoiler safety, not because it spoils anything, but to prevent the post from being so obnoxiously long, lol.)

Zenos is the embodiment of the pure lust for battle (and blood) itself.
(And I put lust in italics here because I think this is not the same as the art of the battle, which is the kind of philosophy I have chosen for my own WoL. But that is just my personal perspective.)


The motivation of the DRK is wrath because of injustice. They are the counterpart to the shining Paladin who embodies purity, chivalry and a "noble" mind ("" because what is noble can also be subjective) while protecting the innocent and delivering justice.

The DRK has the same aims but instead of choosing a shining path they decide to use their dark emotions as a form of strength.
However, the whole resolution of the darknight quest (with Sidurgu) is that just succumbing to your wrath mindlessly is not the true way of the DRK. He actually has to learn to manage his dark emotions in a healthy way for them to be a true source of strength. Like this he can finally use his justified anger as a source for righteous actions.

Healthy management of emotions and obsession doesn't really seem to be Zenos' defining trait. But according to the DRK master of Sidurgu this is crucial to the darknight. Iirc in the end this internal state is their "abyss" they have been looking for so long.


And the first DRK quest, during which you face your own shadow, also has nothing to do with Zenos' philosophy. It's more about mental health and trauma.
It rightfully asks the question how your WoL could even possibly process all the despair and cruelty they have to witness and endure.
Up to that point they have surpressed all the negative effects caused by constantly fighting for everyone and your unconsciousness is trying to send you the message that you need to draw some lines and boundaries. Because not even you can carry the weight of everything and everyone.

Yes, aesthetically the DRK might resemble Zenos because of their darkness and their tendency do fight a lot less "nobly", less "honourably" and way bloodier/gorier than say a paladin because their fighting is guided by their wrath. But their reasons, their motives and the outcome they aspire are a total 180° from Zenos.

Even their darkness itself is completely different from his.
Zenos doesn't even seem to feel wrath, he just feels boredom and a total disregard for any life whereas for the DRK wrath is the central expression of their darkness.

Surely darkknights also enjoy the battle in general (but I'd say that for almost every, well, battle class) and they probably get more satisfaction from stomping someone who causes great injustice and suffering than your average "noble" paladin.
But ultimately, unlike Zenos they don't just fight for the sake of the battle at all costs.
(@MirronTulaxia said it very well (albeit about the WoL in general but I think it applies here, as well) with it being "a far cry from orchestrating mass destruction for the sake of one".)
They fight for others. They just don't do it on a white horse with a halo above their head.

[Alleo]

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Meteion did say that we just have to wish to see our friends and Dynamis would make that happen. For me it makes a bit more sense that after remembering our travel with them we just simply wished to go to them but could not get up. Thus Dynamis answered our wish by giving us our device back.

[Loggos]

Meteion did say that we just have to wish to see our friends and Dynamis would make that happen. For me it makes a bit more sense that after remembering our travel with them we just simply wished to go to them but could not get up. Thus Dynamis answered our wish by giving us our device back.

That's how interpreted it, as well. For me it was a contrast between the friendless, miserable Zenos on the one side who had nobody caring about him nor coming for him and your WoL on the right side who is saved (by who I interpreted as Meteion, but maybe it was also just our own wish that Dynamis reacted to) and returns to their loyal friends. While we disappear Zenos has to stay behind all alone and forgotten at the edge of space. For me that strong contrast felt more like a symbol of his (probably) final punishment and not his (first and) last act of respect for us.

[Bhearil]

"Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him." im talking from Zenos pov, the Wol reaction can vary from "hell yeah, lets end this with a bang" to "dont care much about you but you are a danger to all".

In any case considering that Zenos helped the WoL on the final fight even if Zenos is a horrible person no one cant say the WoL owe him nothing.

The DRK quests show that the WoL has dark emotions within, the reason of that emotions is irrelevant. You can even see hints here and there that the WoL is VICIOUS when fighting (they are actually infamous for that) and even when holding back can be quite brutal (the leporits even mention that some are still sour of how needlessly hard you beat them up). On the DRK quest you get soaked with blood from head to toes so much that the merchant is scared and Fray mentions that you should wear the blood on your armor with pride. The bloodlust and the thrill of battle are some of the negative traits of the WoL but not the only ones. Im not Saying that DRK= Zenos because their ideals are completely different, but some of the dark parts of the WoL shown during the quests mirror Zeno's

The Shadow basically wants the WoL to be themselves not a hero, not a Scion, not the Eorzea's errand boy/girl. And if you notice, Zenos mentions specifically that mirroring the Shadow "Im not asking the hero, the hero just would go back to their friends and realm, but wouldnt YOU enjoy a final battle?". I consider that all the answers are canon and even a small part of the most goodiedo WoL would think about how much they would enjoyed that even if they refrain from doing so, and even the most bloodthirsy WoL could think "I think I had enough fights for today but you are too dangerous to live" even if they finally say "hell yeah, whats one more fight?"

People is focusing too much on how different the WoL and Zenos are instead of realizing that they disturbingly share some core traits. Heck Zenos can be considered a meta mirror of the hardcore raider players, always looking for a bigger fight, and having periods of apathy until they meet another worthy foe, which is something the WoL has as well even if its not the only part of their personality unlike Zenos.

About the teleport part I agree that is open to interpretation, could be Meteion lending us a hand, the Scions, Zenos or even another third party. What is mostly clear is that it was due to dynamis somewhat, but from whom no one but the writers truly know

[QT_Melon]

Zenos being a shard of Azem cant be happening since Hythlo saw him on the moon and commented on seeing Fandaniels soul and then mentioned that there is a second one with him that he does not recognize but who is very dangerous. Of course theoretically they could have lied to us at that moment but for what reason? Especially since there is a very high chance that he is now staying death.

And if he was Azems soul shard wouldnt he already have the abilitily to awaken to the echo?

IMO the point with his dreams might have been a possible plot point that simply got dropped because it did not fit the expansion.

Thank you for reminding me about Hythlodaeus ...I knew I remembered someone mentioning they couldn't recognize him soul-wise but playing in the wee hours to get on from Lobby 2002 extreme some of this wasn't coming up to mind immediately

However, I don't think they may entirely drop that plot point. I mean the other thing that was brought up...

Were the theories of what happens to the soul upon death which we only got a taste of theories from Sharlayan. We can say Zenos is dead but still can say it's not the entire end for him which might be even worse since we don't have Hydaelyn in the aetherial sea. Even then, we already saw the weird resurrection that wasn't entirely explained why he was able to come back. Then we do have the fact that the Ascians that were unsundered had the ability to restore memories to the ones that were. Perhaps the experiment was that Emet wanted to create a way for those base memories to return even after death with less of their intervention...The fact that Zenos still had memories of the Final days may have made him more viable as a test subject.

[Loggos]

In any case considering that Zenos helped the WoL on the final fight even if Zenos is a horrible person no one cant say the WoL owe him nothing.

Spoiler curtain because long post again.

I'm not sure if I understand this part correctly but I read it as "We can't deny that we now owe Zenos because he helped us"?

In that case, my apologies but haaaaaard disagree.
At best I would see it as a first step of compensation for all the suffering and death he caused that he still needs to make up for before he can claim that we owe him even the slightest favour.
(I mean he doesn't even do this to repent for anything but just to get a shot at fighting us so he technically even fails at this first step.)

The DRK quests show that the WoL has dark emotions within, the reason of that emotions is irrelevant. You can even see hints here and there that the WoL is VICIOUS when fighting (they are actually infamous for that) and even when holding back can be quite brutal (the leporits even mention that some are still sour of how needlessly hard you beat them up). On the DRK quest you get soaked with blood from head to toes so much that the merchant is scared and Fray mentions that you should wear the blood on your armor with pride. The bloodlust and the thrill of battle are some of the negative traits of the WoL but not the only ones. Im not Saying that DRK= Zenos because their ideals are completely different, but some of the dark parts of the WoL shown during the quests mirror Zeno's

The Shadow basically wants the WoL to be themselves not a hero, not a Scion, not the Eorzea's errand boy/girl. And if you notice, Zenos mentions specifically that mirroring the Shadow "Im not asking the hero, the hero just would go back to their friends and realm, but wouldnt YOU enjoy a final battle?". I consider that all the answers are canon and even a small part of the most goodiedo WoL would think about how much they would enjoyed that even if they refrain from doing so, and even the most bloodthirsy WoL could think "I think I had enough fights for today but you are too dangerous to live" even if they finally say "hell yeah, whats one more fight?"

We will just have to agree to disagree on DRK then.

I interpret the theme of DRK completely differently. As I said, on the surface they might look similar but I simply disagree with the idea that the WoL having any kind of dark emotion is indicative of them objectively having to be a mirror of Zenos and that the reasons for those emotions are irrelevant.

Again, I cannot emphasise enough that what I'm arguing against is the idea that Zenos is objectively the mirror to The WoL. Not that players can't see Zenos as the mirror to their own WoL.

And if a player sees their DRK like that, power to them. I won't stand in their way.
But my perception of this job is different.

In my eyes, Zenos has very specific dark emotions and he has a very specific view on the topic of battle.
As stated above, I agree that the way dark knights fight is a lot gorier and bloodier than others but I think it does make a big difference how this comes about, esp. if one remembers the theme of the abyss which clearly indicates that an obsession with battle and wrath is not the path of the DRK. The idea is that despite all the insanity and cruelty and wrath you feel you still need to ultimately be reasonable and retain a clear mind. To me that is the total anti-thesis to Zenos.

Zenos demands of you to be open to your alleged lust for battle, indicating that if you just let go, your passion for battle would run wild, even if it's just a part of you. But ironically by entering the abyss DRK are completely opening themselves up to their darkness because they have to truly face it to control it and not to be controlled. They face it precisely to reach this clear state of mind. That's how I understand the message of Sidurgu's master.


And as for the first DRK quest I would also argue that it goes beyond just being yourself. The quest very explicitly addresses the pain you feel (remember those cutscenes with the unidentifiable voice that is in despair, which turns out to be your own) as a result of your heroic role. It's not just about who you want to be as a person but that your role damages you. That you are breaking down from all the psychological damage it causes and that you are supressing. Your shadow gets angry because it tries to tell you that you cannot save everyone, yet in your related job quests you run off to help people even in the most ridiculous situations.

For this reason Zenos' question doesn't compare at all to what your shadow demands of you, in my eyes.


It is also only his assumption that it is the hero who would go back to their friends but the real you would enjoy the battle. Some may feel that way. And that is completely fair.

But others may also want to go back to their friends not as a hero, but as the individual person they are.

People is focusing too much on how different the WoL and Zenos are instead of realizing that they disturbingly share some core traits.

Again, that is your interpretation of your WoL. And that is perfectly fine. What I'm arguing against is that this mirror should be an objective analogy that works for all blank-slate characters. People focus so much on this difference because Zenos is simply not that mirror for them.
Maybe another character would be that mirror. But Zenos cannot fulfill this role for everyone.

Hence, why I'm emphasising the element of choice so much.
Let people choose to fight Zenos.


What is missing here, too, is that this is not only about the affinity for battle, but also a whole lot about Zenos himself. Like I said, I headcanon my WoL to enjoy battle and I'm sure many others do too but I see absolutely nothing in him that resembles my WoL, and that makes me feel like Zenos is even worth my time.
I'd have a very, very easy time saying "Nope, bye.", teleport back while leaving him at the edge if space and don't even give him that attention.

Even though I envision my character to enjoy fighting I also decided for her to have a completely different battle philosophy. Only because in the broadest sense both Zenos and I enjoy the concept of battle does not mean we enjoy the same things about it or have the same view on it.

Heck Zenos can be considered a meta mirror of the hardcore raider players, always looking for a bigger fight, and having periods of apathy until they meet another worthy foe, which is something the WoL has as well even if its not the only part of their personality unlike Zenos.

This argument itself shows how the mirror analogy is not objectively true for everyone.
Not everyone is a raider and even amongst raiders not everyone falls into a state of apathy when the battles are not challenging anymore because raiding is the only thing they like to do in this game.
That certainly applies to some and if they see themselves in Zenos then all the power to them. That's not what I'm arguing against.

But that clearly does not reflect the entire player base. So the idea that this mindset is part of the personality of The WoL is what I disagree with.
It is part of the personality of some WoL. Not all.

[Illmaeran]

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

You and I are of like mind; I've been thinking this for a while now.

Unfortunately for Zenos, his writers didn't take him much past the initial concept/thesis statement of the character. In my eyes, he should have died in Stormblood when he offed himself. That was a clear and satisfying end to a character who had incorporated a powerful entity and failed to kill his foe.

If they had intended for him to be the WoL's Dark Reflection, he shouldn't have died after our first fight. He literally had a dragon god in him; have the guy grow a pair [of wings] and GTFO. Having him escape to fight another day rather than die and be clumsily resurrected would have been more satisfying, relatively speaking. From that point they should have started playing up the Emptiness, Despair, and Futility aspect of why he wanted to fight us more than "Me Hate-Love WOL, Must Fite!". Foreshadowing that theme at the end of SB or early in ShB would have made him a more interesting plot device than the one-trick pony he was in reality. Existential Crisis Zenos would have been much more preferable to Boredom Ennui Zenos and would have actually moved the themes of the following expansions forward.

We should have fought him when we returned to Garlemald. Now that we recognized Despair as the reason Blasphemies are "born", putting him down then and there before he could sow greater chaos and cause the creation of untold more Blasphemies was the perfect out for the character as we would have had a legitimate reason to put him down even if the character didn't want to give him the satisfaction. From that point forward, the Hermes+Meteion story would have kept the plot moving.

I'm looking forward to giving him the smack down and pray that he never shows himself again. He's served his purpose excessively and needs to be relegated to the annals of 2.0-6.0 history.

[Canadane]

I care not for what people think of the character himself, I'd just really enjoy a savage tier level difficulty version of that fight.
Give me a 1v1 that's almost unfair, potd style, to let me best him for realsies.

Could even be like a throwback to Maat from XI? Give me Zeno's Cap if I do it on all classes.
He wanted a challenge, now I do. Let me fight!