[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[Listrella]

Well at least he's been dealt with now, you won't have to put up with him in the story going forward. I thought it was okay myself, they needed to resolve the zenos story somehow.

[Loggos]

One of Zenos pillars was that the WoL was just like him, fighting and killing for sport, always looking for stronger opponents to test themselves and feel something. But when you're dealing with an indeterminate player character, that just doesn't work. Maybe your WoL may feel that way, sure, but mine doesn't.

I completely agree with this. I know that your character is often forced into situations simply by nature of this game needing to tell a story but I think this fight kind of goes beyond that because it is a really fundamental moment of characterisation.

I never once felt like Zenos' mirror because I have a completely different approach to fighting. Even as someone who thoroughly enjoys fighting, I see nothing in Zenos that resembles my WoL or my battle philosophy. In fact we are total opposites.

Then again, as stated by other players, they absolutely do see themselves as his mirror.

Zenos is a relatively divisive character so the relationship that players envision with him will be vastly different but considering that this final battle happens during one of the most important moments of the whole game, it is also a quite character-defining (which I mean in a completely neutral way) relationship.

In general, the game mostly tried to leave it up to us how we want to interpret our own character. When you start the game, all the way back in ARR, you are even asked why you are an adventurer and you have different options that go along the lines of "glory vs. power vs. fortune vs. ... [silence or imagine your own response, I guess?] ".

So, as you say, it makes no sense for the game to force a very specific character-defining role onto your blank-slate character in one of the most important moments of the game, because it's not a neutral role, it really is a role that suits some personalities and not others.

Having the choice to fight him would really have been my favourite option. As I said before, there are enough Zenos fans that would have totally justified the development of that fight because there is lots of other content that is not played by everyone like PvP or raids and yet developing it is absolutely worth it.

[Bright-Flower]

The way I interpreted it is that the options you get allow you to, for your character, accept or deny it.

The first option is agreeing with him and acknowedging it.

The second 'I don't care what you think but you're too dangerous to let you go free'

The third 'omg stfu I am so tired of your crap.'

And if you pick anything but the first Zenos is just projecting onto you.

[Loggos]

As someone who likes Zenos, I think this final fight against him was supposed to leave you unsatisfied.

And it seems like the devs set him up to be an extremely elaborate decoy by hyping him up in the trailers and the promotion art, only to have all that suspense fall flat in the MSQ.

They certainly went out of their way to make the WOL feel thoroughly fed up with him.
How could you not? We have the potential death of the whole universe on our hands, yet this guy stands in front of us in a country he ruined, thinking still only of his own satisfaction!

It was just painful to see how disconnected he is from other people, even the person he considers his only friend.

I think Alisae did not just tell him off when she said that he will always be lonely if he continues to be selfish. I saw this as her actually reaching out a hand and giving advice to someone everyone else had given up on.

And Zenos does actually think about her words, as we see in that CS of him revisiting the Royal Menagerie in Ala Mhigo.

Even he himself recognizes that he is empty. The only pleasure he has is battle. Therefore, it is also the only thing he knows how to share with the WOL. The only way he knows to find fulfillment.
So you meet him where he wants to met. Give him the epic duel he thinks he wants.

Even if he is so flawed, he even fails at being a satisfying villain. We "help" him in the only way he wants to be helped.

But when both Zenos and the WOL lie dying, he realizes that while the battle gave him bliss, it is short-lived and fleeting.
When he asks if you, his mirror, found fulfillment I was thinking: "No! Of course not!"

He starts with "I...", but dies before he can answer his own question.

At this point, you see a gleaming in the sky. The teleportation device falls down next to you, teleporting you to safety just in time.

Yet when you talk to Urianger again after his CS in the Rising Stones, he says that Moenbryda's parents assured him the device is incapable of coming back by itself.
And he continues:
'Twas a miracle befitting the nature of that place, where emotion becometh tangible reality. Whence, then, arose this timely wonder? Thine ardent wish...or another's fervent prayer?

I take this to mean that Zenos finally realized he did not find fulfillment, did not find satisfaction in living only for battle. And that, you, his mirror ultimately did not find it either.
He wants you to be saved and live on. Because he finally understands that there is a reason other than battle to live or at least learned to hope there is.

At least this it how I interpret it, because the whole theme of the expansion up to this point was that nobody is beyond hope.

It would be very strange if you can give the literal incarnation of despair and hopelessness new hope again, yet this one fool who followed you to the edge of the universe because he was lonely is somehow supposed to be beyond it? I don't see how this could be the intent.

I don't even disagree with this characterisation of him but I think the timing of bringing his arc to a resolution was really off. Even if it is befitting for him as a character, it was not befitting for the rest of the story in my eyes.

And now you could say, this is again a symbol of his egoism, that he inserts himself into the finale even though it doesn't fit, but in the end it's not him who’s in charge of the story but the writers and as a writer it's your job to keep the overall story in mind to create the best possible version of it.

The finale had a really distinct tone. The emotional atmosphere of the endwalk, the music, your conversation with Emet and Hythlo, the flowers, Meteion breaking down before the last dungeon, us saving our friends to stay behind all alone, us casting an ultra-mega limit break with the help of The Power of Friendship and The Will to Live, freeing Meteion from her fate and having her sing her song of joy...all of this culminated in a really grand, glorious and highly touching setting.

The confrontation with Zenos was very different in tone and many felt like it really ripped them out of that "We just saved the Universe" emotion they had experienced just a few seconds ago.
For people who don't like Zenos that is simply not satisfying from an overall narrative point of view, even if it may make sense for the character himself.



If the intention was to show that nobody is beyond hope, not even Zenos, then I wished they would have resolved his arc at another point in the story and left the grand emotionality of the finale untouched.

Maybe they could have turned the timing of events around: We somehow fight him before and his last gift to us, that symbolises his change of mind, is paving the way for us or somehow giving us something/setting something in motion that enable us to fight Endsinger. (If it's not for the world then at least out of "respect" for us.)

The badass, “fight your nemesis at the edge of space” kind of feeling (ignoring for now whether he really is The Nemesis of choice for everyone) would have worked better for me if it occured before the Ultimate Salvation of the Universe feeling. Kind of as a mini-finale that leads up to the big finale.

That said, my point is maybe the player is supposed to be left slightly unsatisfied.
The devs do want you to keep playing after all, and not use this opportunity of an a ending to give up on FF14 or MMOs.

To be honest I don’t really see how not having to fight Zenos would lead to players suddenly feeling like they’ll stop playing FF, esp. veteran players (but I would assume something similar for newer players).

And how on the other side fighting Zenos would create so much desire to continue playing that it could cancel out the alleged feeling of “being so satisfied that you had your closure with the whole of FF14 and move on”.

To me it’s quite the opposite. A great finale makes me want to continue playing even more, because I trust this dev team to create the content that excites me and that I can’t wait to get my hands on. I really want to know what else they have in store, esp. now that we know we’ll get at least another 10 years’ worth of content.



Also, this begs the question of what kind of dissatisfaction we are talking about. You are describing a good kind of dissatisfaction that you feel within the narrative (just how effective narratives can elicit sadness or anger but it still “feels right” because it’s proof of a good story).

And there is also dissatisfaction that we are still lacking background info on him so one wishes for him to return and see what happens next with him.


But many people feel a completely different satisfaction, namely the pointlessness of his character and that he does not fit into the story.

Or the dissatisfaction that he is gone without you learning said background info, but at the same time bringing him back would be more than a questionable decision.

I think neither of these two last types of dissatisfaction are the kind of feelings that prevent you from dropping the game after the finale.

[Raiya]

I've been reading some stuff since the end of Endwalker and I don't think this is the last of Zenos per se. Yeah he's physically dead for sure this time but this is the same guy who has survived death once before for an unknown inexplicable reason which has never actually been explained.
Been thinking about some things and there might be a reason why we'll see him yet again: He IS a sundered shard of Azem.... from the 13th.
There's several reason I'm starting to think of this but only because of one point in the Endwalker story which seems to stand out noticably and seems to run counter to what was previously established: During the Garlemald campaign as a way to stall and try and get your attention he kicks you out of your body with Fandaniels assistance with the help of a mindjack machine from that scientist in Ala Mhigo. He then takes off and has you chase after him in a Garlean's body. This actually runs counter to an earlier part of Shadowbringers: Elidibus in Ardberts body - he was only able to take control of that corpse AFTER Ardbert had rejoined with ourselves and hence severing his connection with his old body. It should NOT have been possible for Zenos to actually do that since Elidibus was an Unsundered and even HE couldnt possess that corpse. The only one reason Zenos could do so without being blocked was because he's a fragment of us and the protection on our physical body would mistake him for us.
There's some tidbits and hints to actually back this up

*He's been stated to be some sort of Garlean Test Subject but it was never clearly defined as to what beyond his dealings with the resonance project. What if Emet had been using him in a veiled experiment to see if a soul from the 13th could be salvaged? After all it's the ONE shard that was left in an unfit state and to fully restore the world SOMETHING would have needed to be done at some point to repair that shard.
*Daddy dearest paid him no time in his youth and his mother supposedly sickened and died shortly after his birth. Seems straightforward enough but what if the real Zenos actually died along with his mother during birth and Emet decided to take advantage to use the body to see if it could hold or restore a soul shard of someone from the void?
*He doesn't have the echo BUT at the same time noone was aware of having this until they're presented with a vision of the final days.
*He posesses memories of the final days that have plagued his dreams, by all accounts he SHOULD have an echo but doesnt which could be a possible side effect of having a Garlean Body.
*Someone with a weaker soul might stand out on the source alright if they were a magic user. However if they're GARLEAN this would certainly be easily missed.
*He's related to Solus aka Emet aka Hades who just so happens to be a master in matters of the soul and it would have NOT been out of hand if he had been up to something, the man has a penchant for plotting every moment of every day after all....
*He gets renamed viator during Endwalker which others have noted the obvious "exile" meaning it's been noted as "traveller or Wanderer" as well? That's rather telling there.
*He calls himself a "dark counterpart" to us. Wouldn't seem much at first glance but if he was from the void originally then it would CERTAINLY be very relevant.
*He's been thought of as flat or boring character however what if there's a subtle reason for it: he was flat because he was MISSING something the entire time?
*He survived a death he shouldn't normally have: The Resonance was thought of as a cause but what if the real reason was because he was originally a denizen of the void?
*He become's a reaper in Endwalker and there seemingly is a reason for this beyond just the simple new job explanation and that it was one way for Garleans to be able to defend themselves.
*He possessed our body when it was alluded to that this should not be possible by him and was not even possible for Elidibus an unsudered to possess Ardberts before a certain point..
*At some point we will have to travel to the void as out of all the places right now that be near the top the list of thing's that would need fixing it's DEFINATELY there. If Zenos turn's out to have been originally a denizen of that place well he'd certainly make for the most interesting companion since the void would just be FULL of ravenous murderous soul eating monsters needing a reaping.
*A tour of the void would certainly need an established character and if Zenos fills the spot as an original denizen his past behaviour of looking for things to fight would fit something from there.
*It would NOT be out of hand to be a sheer irony factor that the one person who just persistently and doggedly hounded us for 3 expansions was as stubborn as we were because they were a FRAGMENT of us.

There's probably more but some have said the devs are being coy about Zenos so I certainly think there could be more of him. He's had his moment twice now and the 2nd time he had to earn his way into getting his rematch. Since he can't seem to beat us he might as well join us and all that...

[Callalily]

The finale had a really distinct tone. The emotional atmosphere of the endwalk, the music, your conversation with Emet and Hythlo, the flowers, Meteion breaking down before the last dungeon, us saving our friends to stay behind all alone, us casting an ultra-mega limit break with the help of The Power of Friendship and The Will to Live, freeing Meteion from her fate and having her sing her song of joy...all of this culminated in a really grand, glorious and highly touching setting.

The confrontation with Zenos was very different in tone and many felt like it really ripped them out of that "We just saved the Universe" emotion they had experienced just a few seconds ago.
For people who don't like Zenos that is simply not satisfying from an overall narrative point of view, even if it may make sense for the character himself.

Yes, I agree with you about the mismatched tone of these two scenes. The dissatisfied feeling arising from this mismatch was what I was refering to.
So many emotional moments followed each other and then suddenly being made to fight Zenos felt overwhelming.

I believe the writers are aware of this effect. And I don't see them unintentionally rushing such an extremely important ending.
But if this is not an accident, why are they choosing to make you feel this way? Is it so you can confidently deny the question about fulilment? Is it so you can share the feelings of your character who seems to have finally reached the personal limit they have repeatedly been warned about? I honestly don't know. I just think it there must be a plan behind it.

Me saying "maybe they don't want you to quit?" is also just speculation.

And there is also dissatisfaction that we are still lacking background info on him so one wishes for him to return and see what happens next with him.

But many people feel a completely different satisfaction, namely the pointlessness of his character and that he does not fit into the story.

I agree with you here too! We don't know why Zenos was dreaming of Amaurot even before he had the echo, or why Elidibus referred to him as an "irreplacable test subject" and what, if anything, Emet-Selch had to do with it.
But these are questions that could potentially be also be answered in the abscence of Zenos. Maybe when/if we get to explore the Garlean palace further.

Zenos IS a pretty divisive character and while I personally like his charcter and would not necessarily mind if they brought him back, I agree that it would be difficult to do it after he was portayed as kind of a nuiscance to the WOL for most of EW.

There's probably more but some have said the devs are being coy about Zenos so I certainly think there could be more of him. He's had his moment twice now and the 2nd time he had to earn his way into getting his rematch. Since he can't seem to beat us he might as well join us and all that...

I was already writing my post before you added yours, but I really like this idea and your reasoning behind Zenos being a shard of Azem!

[QT_Melon]

I've been reading some stuff since the end of Endwalker and I don't think this is the last of Zenos per se. Yeah he's physically dead for sure this time but this is the same guy who has survived death once before for an unknown inexplicable reason which has never actually been explained.
Been thinking about some things and there might be a reason why we'll see him yet again: He IS a sundered shard of Azem.... from the 13th.

Hmm. Big part of me says "no" however upon thinking about it.

The biggest reason being is that Emet has the ability to see souls. He would definitely recognize the soul of his friend. However, that being said. It's possible he left out the detail about him IF Zenos was an experiment and died before that part came into play. It does beg the question how he brought over the soul to our realm.

Also I don't think there was a big definitive answer as to what happened to our counterpart on the 13th. People were theorizing that Unukalhai may have been our counterpart. However, believe that was not the case since the Role quest line. (sorry was still editing but had to go AFK).

[Raiya]

Hmm. Big part of me says "no" however upon thinking about it.

The biggest reason being is that Emet has the ability to see souls. He would definitely recognize the soul of his friend. However, that being said. It's possible he left out the detail about him IF Zenos was an experiment and died before that part came into play. It does beg the question how he brought over the soul to our realm.

Also I don't think there was a big definitive answer as to what happened to our counterpart on the 13th. People were theorizing that Unukalhai may have been our counterpart.

Unukalhai was originally theorised to be a fragment of us but the last quests we got with him strongly hint at him being a sundered fragment of ANOTHER person from the First. That would eliminate him since Ardbert was our fragment and is now part of our soul. As for how he could get said soul over from the void? Mhach already had that solved they literally powered their civilization by stuffing voidsent into glorified batteries to power their things and if Emet had a hand in it during the 6th calamity then there's your answer as to how he'd have the knowledge. Hasnt been the first time someone's summoned someone from the void either. Could have been a simple case of someone summoning a voidsent who just happened to have Azems soul fragment and happened to run into Solus and he decided to capture it for a later project.

[Alleo]

Zenos being a shard of Azem cant be happening since Hythlo saw him on the moon and commented on seeing Fandaniels soul and then mentioned that there is a second one with him that he does not recognize but who is very dangerous. Of course theoretically they could have lied to us at that moment but for what reason? Especially since there is a very high chance that he is now staying death.

And if he was Azems soul shard wouldnt he already have the abilitily to awaken to the echo?

IMO the point with his dreams might have been a possible plot point that simply got dropped because it did not fit the expansion.

[Bhearil]

Personally I agree with the Wol and Zenos mirror analogy. It doesnt not mean they are the same but they are twisted reflections of each other. On that sense no one understand them better than the other

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL that are mentioned on the DRK quests. They both enjoy the thrill of battle, the challenge to reach even higher, but the reasoning behind is not the same, because Zenos seeks only his own enjoyment, while the WoL even if part of them enjoy the fight itself they also have other reasons to do so and find their own satisfaction in other things like friendship, curiosity (Venat and the Wol are stated to have a huge curiosity) etc.

To Zenos he eventually comes to the realization that despite them being the same, the Wol is generally satisfied with their life instead of feeling dull and bored most of their time, so they not desperate like him for a rematch, specially when the WoL is focusing on the End of Days and Zenos is at most an annoyance. So he decides to help him out for several reasons:

Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him and if they still refuse he will acept his friend decision (Zenos DO have a sense of honor albeit twisted)
He finally look at himself and realizes how empty his existence is and on a sense he ENVIES the WoL because despite their power they found their place in life. The Wol has lots of things that give them pleasure while he only has a fleeting one.

Their final fight is not a combat but a dialog about their ways of life, powering both to the limit with the power of dynamis.

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL persona, parts that are usually supressed due to their morality (but still there like the DRK quests clearly show), while the WoL to Zenos eventually becomes what he could have became himself if instead of being isolated his entire life he found companions and learned to live

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri