[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[Bhearil]

Personally I agree with the Wol and Zenos mirror analogy. It doesnt not mean they are the same but they are twisted reflections of each other. On that sense no one understand them better than the other

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL that are mentioned on the DRK quests. They both enjoy the thrill of battle, the challenge to reach even higher, but the reasoning behind is not the same, because Zenos seeks only his own enjoyment, while the WoL even if part of them enjoy the fight itself they also have other reasons to do so and find their own satisfaction in other things like friendship, curiosity (Venat and the Wol are stated to have a huge curiosity) etc.

To Zenos he eventually comes to the realization that despite them being the same, the Wol is generally satisfied with their life instead of feeling dull and bored most of their time, so they not desperate like him for a rematch, specially when the WoL is focusing on the End of Days and Zenos is at most an annoyance. So he decides to help him out for several reasons:

Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him and if they still refuse he will acept his friend decision (Zenos DO have a sense of honor albeit twisted)
He finally look at himself and realizes how empty his existence is and on a sense he ENVIES the WoL because despite their power they found their place in life. The Wol has lots of things that give them pleasure while he only has a fleeting one.

Their final fight is not a combat but a dialog about their ways of life, powering both to the limit with the power of dynamis.

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL persona, parts that are usually supressed due to their morality (but still there like the DRK quests clearly show), while the WoL to Zenos eventually becomes what he could have became himself if instead of being isolated his entire life he found companions and learned to live

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

[Loggos]

Personally I agree with the Wol and Zenos mirror analogy. It doesnt not mean they are the same but they are twisted reflections of each other. On that sense no one understand them better than the other

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL that are mentioned on the DRK quests. They both enjoy the thrill of battle, the challenge to reach even higher, but the reasoning behind is not the same, because Zenos seeks only his own enjoyment, while the WoL even if part of them enjoy the fight itself they also have other reasons to do so and find their own satisfaction in other things like friendship, curiosity (Venat and the Wol are stated to have a huge curiosity) etc.

To Zenos he eventually comes to the realization that despite them being the same, the Wol is generally satisfied with their life instead of feeling dull and bored most of their time, so they not desperate like him for a rematch, specially when the WoL is focusing on the End of Days and Zenos is at most an annoyance. So he decides to help him out for several reasons:

Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him and if they still refuse he will acept his friend decision (Zenos DO have a sense of honor albeit twisted)
He finally look at himself and realizes how empty his existence is and on a sense he ENVIES the WoL because despite their power they found their place in life. The Wol has lots of things that give them pleasure while he only has a fleeting one.

Their final fight is not a combat but a dialog about their ways of life, powering both to the limit with the power of dynamis.

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Zenos reflects the darkest parts of the WoL persona, parts that are usually supressed due to their morality (but still there like the DRK quests clearly show), while the WoL to Zenos eventually becomes what he could have became himself if instead of being isolated his entire life he found companions and learned to live

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

I would argue that this analogy is not objective though. Like I said, it's completely fair if people consider their own WoL as a mirror to Zenos but from a narrative point of view I really don't think that this is The interpretation of their relationship.

This is why I disagree when you say "Once the main problem is fixed the Wol wont have no reason to not fight him.". I think people who don't like him have plenty of reasons not to fight him, ever.
For example because we don't plan to give him the only thing he wants, because he is so cruel that we don't even want to give him any of the attention that he craves etc. (There are more examples in this thread.)

Again, I don't meant to say at all that this perspective is the "correct" interpretation either. I just think, as people said before me, the mirror as an objective analogy doesn't really work for blank-slate characters. It's more for characters the story completely defines for you.

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Lastly, I disagree with the Darkknight analogy. The themes of the DRK quest are completely different and entirely unrelated to Zenos' philosophy in my eyes.

(Sorry for the wall of text but the DRK quests, esp. the first one, are my favourite job quests, haha. So I'm kinda emotionally invested in them. orz

I'll put it behind the spoiler safety, not because it spoils anything, but to prevent the post from being so obnoxiously long, lol.)

Zenos is the embodiment of the pure lust for battle (and blood) itself.
(And I put lust in italics here because I think this is not the same as the art of the battle, which is the kind of philosophy I have chosen for my own WoL. But that is just my personal perspective.)


The motivation of the DRK is wrath because of injustice. They are the counterpart to the shining Paladin who embodies purity, chivalry and a "noble" mind ("" because what is noble can also be subjective) while protecting the innocent and delivering justice.

The DRK has the same aims but instead of choosing a shining path they decide to use their dark emotions as a form of strength.
However, the whole resolution of the darknight quest (with Sidurgu) is that just succumbing to your wrath mindlessly is not the true way of the DRK. He actually has to learn to manage his dark emotions in a healthy way for them to be a true source of strength. Like this he can finally use his justified anger as a source for righteous actions.

Healthy management of emotions and obsession doesn't really seem to be Zenos' defining trait. But according to the DRK master of Sidurgu this is crucial to the darknight. Iirc in the end this internal state is their "abyss" they have been looking for so long.


And the first DRK quest, during which you face your own shadow, also has nothing to do with Zenos' philosophy. It's more about mental health and trauma.
It rightfully asks the question how your WoL could even possibly process all the despair and cruelty they have to witness and endure.
Up to that point they have surpressed all the negative effects caused by constantly fighting for everyone and your unconsciousness is trying to send you the message that you need to draw some lines and boundaries. Because not even you can carry the weight of everything and everyone.

Yes, aesthetically the DRK might resemble Zenos because of their darkness and their tendency do fight a lot less "nobly", less "honourably" and way bloodier/gorier than say a paladin because their fighting is guided by their wrath. But their reasons, their motives and the outcome they aspire are a total 180° from Zenos.

Even their darkness itself is completely different from his.
Zenos doesn't even seem to feel wrath, he just feels boredom and a total disregard for any life whereas for the DRK wrath is the central expression of their darkness.

Surely darkknights also enjoy the battle in general (but I'd say that for almost every, well, battle class) and they probably get more satisfaction from stomping someone who causes great injustice and suffering than your average "noble" paladin.
But ultimately, unlike Zenos they don't just fight for the sake of the battle at all costs.
(@MirronTulaxia said it very well (albeit about the WoL in general but I think it applies here, as well) with it being "a far cry from orchestrating mass destruction for the sake of one".)
They fight for others. They just don't do it on a white horse with a halo above their head.

[Alleo]

After the fight Zenos is defeated and feels vexed he still lost meaning that his way of life was wrong, yet he acepts it and asks the WoL about theirs. The teleporter was probably Zenos final act to his only friend because unlike him THEY did have things to do and enjoy their remaining life. It wasnt the place for them to die moreso when winning their clash of ideals

Meteion did say that we just have to wish to see our friends and Dynamis would make that happen. For me it makes a bit more sense that after remembering our travel with them we just simply wished to go to them but could not get up. Thus Dynamis answered our wish by giving us our device back.

[Loggos]

Meteion did say that we just have to wish to see our friends and Dynamis would make that happen. For me it makes a bit more sense that after remembering our travel with them we just simply wished to go to them but could not get up. Thus Dynamis answered our wish by giving us our device back.

That's how interpreted it, as well. For me it was a contrast between the friendless, miserable Zenos on the one side who had nobody caring about him nor coming for him and your WoL on the right side who is saved (by who I interpreted as Meteion, but maybe it was also just our own wish that Dynamis reacted to) and returns to their loyal friends. While we disappear Zenos has to stay behind all alone and forgotten at the edge of space. For me that strong contrast felt more like a symbol of his (probably) final punishment and not his (first and) last act of respect for us.

[Illmaeran]

Their dinamic to me looks a lot like the relationship between Drizzt Do'Urden and Artemis Entreri

You and I are of like mind; I've been thinking this for a while now.

Unfortunately for Zenos, his writers didn't take him much past the initial concept/thesis statement of the character. In my eyes, he should have died in Stormblood when he offed himself. That was a clear and satisfying end to a character who had incorporated a powerful entity and failed to kill his foe.

If they had intended for him to be the WoL's Dark Reflection, he shouldn't have died after our first fight. He literally had a dragon god in him; have the guy grow a pair [of wings] and GTFO. Having him escape to fight another day rather than die and be clumsily resurrected would have been more satisfying, relatively speaking. From that point they should have started playing up the Emptiness, Despair, and Futility aspect of why he wanted to fight us more than "Me Hate-Love WOL, Must Fite!". Foreshadowing that theme at the end of SB or early in ShB would have made him a more interesting plot device than the one-trick pony he was in reality. Existential Crisis Zenos would have been much more preferable to Boredom Ennui Zenos and would have actually moved the themes of the following expansions forward.

We should have fought him when we returned to Garlemald. Now that we recognized Despair as the reason Blasphemies are "born", putting him down then and there before he could sow greater chaos and cause the creation of untold more Blasphemies was the perfect out for the character as we would have had a legitimate reason to put him down even if the character didn't want to give him the satisfaction. From that point forward, the Hermes+Meteion story would have kept the plot moving.

I'm looking forward to giving him the smack down and pray that he never shows himself again. He's served his purpose excessively and needs to be relegated to the annals of 2.0-6.0 history.

[Loggos]

Unfortunately for Zenos, his writers didn't take him much past the initial concept/thesis statement of the character. In my eyes, he should have died in Stormblood when he offed himself. That was a clear and satisfying end to a character who had incorporated a powerful entity and failed to kill his foe.

If they had intended for him to be the WoL's Dark Reflection, he shouldn't have died after our first fight. He literally had a dragon god in him; have the guy grow a pair [of wings] and GTFO. Having him escape to fight another day rather than die and be clumsily resurrected would have been more satisfying, relatively speaking. From that point they should have started playing up the Emptiness, Despair, and Futility aspect of why he wanted to fight us more than "Me Hate-Love WOL, Must Fite!". Foreshadowing that theme at the end of SB or early in ShB would have made him a more interesting plot device than the one-trick pony he was in reality. Existential Crisis Zenos would have been much more preferable to Boredom Ennui Zenos and would have actually moved the themes of the following expansions forward.

We should have fought him when we returned to Garlemald. Now that we recognized Despair as the reason Blasphemies are "born", putting him down then and there before he could sow greater chaos and cause the creation of untold more Blasphemies was the perfect out for the character as we would have had a legitimate reason to put him down even if the character didn't want to give him the satisfaction. From that point forward, the Hermes+Meteion story would have kept the plot moving.

I'm looking forward to giving him the smack down and pray that he never shows himself again. He's served his purpose excessively and needs to be relegated to the annals of 2.0-6.0 history.

I actually really agree with this. If they had done it like this his whole character might have made a lot more sense to me.