It's time to kill the argument that DPS abilities keep healers from healing.

[GrimGale]

Not an option for DF content generally. Plenty of people do oddball group comps with statics and at best you'll sometimes see Primal farms and such pop up as solo heal. But that is the exception to the rule with many fights having healer specific mechanics that make a solo heal run problematic.



The only thing getting pushed to the limits in casual content is the paint on my Glare key.

Put the DPS thing aside for just a moment. This isn't about healers specifically wanting to sit there DPSing. It's about healers having some kind of involving gameplay in often multiple minutes we see between anything happening that affects us in the slightest in all levels of content. I suspect most of the people that are angry over this would be happy with just about anything that doesn't involve pressing the same button potentially 200+ times in a single fight.



Answer me this: Picture the scene.... You queue up for 24 man, you get a WHM co healer who maintains Medica II and blasts Cure IIs at anyone who gets so much as a scratch. They are overhealing everything which is absolutely fine, no issues there. Tell me, what do you do when you get a co-healer like this in a 24 man dungeon?



Have you ever considered that the comically low expectations and demands on the healers in most content is perhaps the very reason we see so many borderline afk healers that are content to just auto follow and mash a singlular button? No other role can get away with that so readily in 8/24 man content. There is literally zero difficulty curve to end game healing until you hit Extremes and Savage. Casual full party content can be reliably 'cleared' and 'beaten' whilst face down for the entirety of it.

It's absolutely a design problem. People's bad attitudes are a result of the design that encourages and rewards such a terrible standard of play.

You know, I'm going to withdraw from this conversation. You're doing a much better job at explaining the issue and countering arguments. And I am getting really tired of replying to the same arguments over and over again.
I just don't want you to feel like you're alone on this subject by not replying anymore.

[Jadkay]

Would you mind showing me the DF setting that allows me to solo heal for my daily roulettes? because I am ususally forced to play with a second healer by the game.

Uh ? Don't think you understand anything in my answer. The game is not forcing you to play a specific job. My point was to show than if you are not going to do your job role, don't play that role. If you queue as healer in 8man daily roulette, you are supposed to heal. If you don't want to heal and still play healer, make a 8man party with your setup and queue for your daily, so you don't ruin others players experience by not healing and letting them die.

Doesn't change the fact that your DF dungeons for example still require a healer to queue. Glarebroil spam doesn't only happen in 8 mans.

Players cannot force Healers to focus on DPS, what are you talking about. They can chose not to play with you at worst. Just like if you're a bad DPS they can chose not to play with you, or if you're a bad Tank that doesn't take aggro.

Does that mean the devs should design ALL the Jobs to be stale? It's clear having less buttons doesn't make healers heal more. It only makes people that could juggle healing and DPS bored out of their minds!

If your issue is player behavior, you have now more than ever the tools to cull that behaviour. What the does that have to do with class design? The fact that DPS buttons exist doesn't mean you have to use them on a healer. Player expectation might be there but as you said your role is healer. The bare minimum is keeping people alive.

You can blame rudeness but you can't blame players for expecting more than the bare minimum!

Same as above. And I do blame players for forcing healers maximise their DPS. It's not the same as asking a healer to DPS when the party doesnt need healing. There is a difference between playing a role as intended and optimising anything with your party. To optimise something where it requiere 8 players to work together, all those 8 players need to be agree and playing together with that idea of optimisation.
I'm sorry if I'm not enough clear but english is not my native language.

Answer me this: Picture the scene.... You queue up for 24 man, you get a WHM co healer who maintains Medica II and blasts Cure IIs at anyone who gets so much as a scratch. They are overhealing everything which is absolutely fine, no issues there. Tell me, what do you do when you get a co-healer like this in a 24 man dungeon?

Irrevelant as he is doing his job so I'm jsut doing mine : heal also and if there is nothing to heal I use my 1 dps button because I dislike to stand doing nothing.

Have you ever considered that the comically low expectations and demands on the healers in most content is perhaps the very reason we see so many borderline afk healers that are content to just auto follow and mash a singlular button? No other role can get away with that so readily in 8/24 man content. There is literally zero difficulty curve to end game healing until you hit Extremes and Savage. Casual full party content can be reliably 'cleared' and 'beaten' whilst face down for the entirety of it.

It's absolutely a design problem. People's bad attitudes are a result of the design that encourages and rewards such a terrible standard of play.

Who is forcing people to play a job they find boring ? Play something else or change game ?

Anyway I'm going to drop from that thread because, as I stated, this is my OWN and PERSONNAL opinion of the game and most of people just wanna prove and force me to agree with them lol. Like I never tell you can't go 1H in 8man or don't heal even if you play healer. I just stated than you don't have to force people accepting it and so making your own team with people that are agree so you doesn't ruin the experience of players who play the game in a 'more normal way'.

[Sani2341]

Put the DPS thing aside for just a moment. This isn't about healers specifically wanting to sit there DPSing. It's about healers having some kind of involving gameplay in often multiple minutes we see between anything happening that affects us in the slightest in all levels of content. I suspect most of the people that are angry over this would be happy with just about anything that doesn't involve pressing the same button potentially 200+ times in a single fight.

This, so much this.
While more DPS variety is the 'easy' solution to the issue, especially as we had them before (miasma, aero 3, ...), anything that would bring any variety to the GCDs when no healing is necessary would be great.

Which is why I was so excited for when I first learned abotu Toxicon, gettign rewarded for basicly keeping up gcd shieldign sounded liek an interesting approach to this. (Granted then I learned about the numbers, and imho, the implementation leaves a lot to be desired with the media tour build)

More stuff like that, imho, would be just as welcome, if not more so if it manages to reward the use of GCD Heals. It is just much easier to go 'give us back what we had' over coming up with, proposing and clearly communicating a new type of downtime busy work.

EDIT:

Uh ? Don't think you understand anything in my answer. The game is not forcing you to play a specific job. My point was to show than if you are not going to do your job role, don't play that role. If you queue as healer in 8man daily roulette, you are supposed to heal. If you don't want to heal and still play healer, make a 8man party with your setup and queue for your daily, so you don't ruin others players experience by not healing and letting them die.

How do you go from 'please forgo searching another healer to group with me DF so I can Heal more' to 'I don't want to heal'? Because ime, there ususaly is not enough damage for two competent healers in normal mode content. Esp. if one of the two spams medica 2 the moment the tank goes to 99% HP.

[Semirhage]

*circus music*

Here we go again with the same list of arguments from the last six years...they never change, and they never evolve.

"Healers should HEAL ONLY!" "Okay you can do a little damage but only rarely during your downtime!" "Healing should be your top priority! If you're casting Holy and the party has less than full HP you're not queuing as a REAL HEALER!" "Pressing Glare 200 times a fight isn't a natural consequence of easy content and a terrible damage kit, it's the community forcing everyone to do it!"

Me. Pagalth'an. "Expert" roulette. One healer. Zero casts of GCD healing spells outside lilies. Glare and Holy collectively cast many, many, many times more than healing abilities. Is not a consequence. Of the community "forcing" me. To maximize my DPS. It's a consequence of how easy most of this game's content is. And how terribly, wretchedly stupid my downtime kit is.

[GrimGale]

And I do blame players for forcing healers maximise their DPS. It's not the same as asking a healer to DPS when the party doesnt need healing. There is a difference between playing a role as intended and optimising anything with your party. To optimise something where it requiere 8 players to work together, all those 8 players need to be agree and playing together with that idea of optimisation.

Fair enough, you blame players for forcing healers to maximise their DPS. Okay.

What does that have to do with Job design and healers have more than a couple of buttons to DPS? Are you gonna use the fact that SOME players force healers to maximise their DPS as a design axiom to make ALL healers suffer from said design? Are you going to apply that logic to DPS that don't do acceptable DPS?

Oh, some DPS players can barely push dps, better reduce their classes to a 1 button mash- That way they can't possibly mess up.

Again, nobody complained back in Stormblood about healers having too many buttons to use for DPS. The complaints relating to healers were regarding balance between each Job. You had people complaining about healers tunnel-visioning both in SB and now, so you can see how little removing DPS actions has served to fix the problem.

I will admit, healer DPS kit could have used some streamlining, especially since they wanted to add new actions. But they over did it.

[Sebazy]

Same as above. And I do blame players for forcing healers maximise their DPS.

So DPS checks in Gordias and onwards that *REQUIRE* healer DPS to clear the fight had nothing to do with this?

Go watch some ARR progression videos, at best you'll see healers maintaining dots in most fights. Why? Because healers were resource starved and DPS checks were far and few between, generally only being short pushes at very specific phases. It's not the communities fault we're in the situation. SE set the bar with Gordias Savage and they've kept it close to that ever since even if it's not quite as extreme (E8S for example).

Anyway I'm going to drop from that thread because, as I stated, this is my OWN and PERSONNAL opinion of the game and most of people just wanna prove and force me to agree with them lol.

Bai =(

[FoxCh40s]

The same arguements over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

So tired of it. We seriously had this squashed in Stormblood, FINALLY, and then the Devs go an reignite this arguement all over again. It's going to take ANOTHER 6 years to squash this arguement.

Frankly, I'm done with it. If SE wants to not listen to the Veteran's. Then so be it, it's not our game, it's not our choice, not our resources, not our vision, and not our money.

[MellowMink]

Frankly, I'm done with it. If SE wants to not listen to the Veteran's. Then so be it, it's not our game, it's not our choice, not our resources, not our vision, and not our money.

They can't be surprised if the queues for healer players take longer than wanted then.

It's pretty upsetting to be regularly ignored, such as with higher-up designers saying that they weren't sure what else to do with Scholar despite having dozens of pages of specific feedback and constructively worded suggestions across the official forums; I hope the indication isn't that they just outright avoid reading one of the few avenues for direct communications that they provide.

[inhaledcorn]

They can't be surprised if the queues for healer players take longer than wanted then.

It's pretty upsetting to be regularly ignored, such as with higher-up designers saying that they weren't sure what else to do with Scholar despite having dozens of pages of specific feedback and constructively worded suggestions across the official forums; I hope the indication isn't that they just outright avoid reading one of the few avenues for direct communications that they provide.

If they're at a loss on what to give SCH because the job is too limited in the scope of its design, then the job needs a new one.

[FoxCh40s]

If they're at a loss on what to give SCH because the job is too limited in the scope of its design, then the job needs a new one.

Except they can't even be bothered with that.