It's time to kill the argument that DPS abilities keep healers from healing.

[Irenia]

We would heal more if, after keeping everyone alive, healing ended encounters quicker.

Wiping in a fight is terrible; wastes so much time of the clock. It feels so good to save a catastrophic run because that is a possible wipe avoided.

Dead players stop contributing to the fight, and this waste time. Even when they mess up, I will heal them, as long as they are trying - since that effort generally is rewarded.

Besides that, healing can't really affect the fight. Damage spells do, but the ones we have are boring. Alas, since we want to be useful, we press them out of obligation.

The drive to keep everyone alive and the drive to do DPS come from the same source, at the end of the day. DPS is not king. The clock is.

[Sebazy]

I'm all for challenging combat, myself, but healers are supposed to struggle in solo content and only be of moderate assistance in damaging a boss. Otherwise there would be no appeal to playing a DPS class. It's lore correct that way; the bread and milk that formed group gaming as we know it today, and my fear is that players (well-known for their this-is-never-enough attitude towards any and all classes) will continue to drive towards the same sort of changes that made WoW's dungeons and raiding so terribly hectic and strange, which is why I'm glad that SE has put their foot down and so NO to yet more damage or more distracting combos.

I'm curious about how you feel that this is lore correct?

From the angle of in game lore, the White Mages of Amdapor went toe to toe with and beat the Black Mages of Mhach, the fall out from which was destructive enough to cause the fifth umbral calamity.

It's not even much of a Final Fantasy trope. Healing focused roles in classic FF games have historically done just fine on the offence, usually being defensively frail rather than offensively inept. FFXI is a notable exception but then the same can be said of just about any job that isn't the right job for the situation, it just kind of ran away in it's own direction with Nin tanks leading the charge.

As for other MMOs. Claiming that this is somehow 'the bread and milk that formed group gaming as we know it today' is just laughably misinformed. Have you ever watched an Everquest Druid soloing drakes in Cobalt scar? 4 at a time btw.... If you looked down below the cliffs, you'd see a Shaman killing a raid boss called Kelorek Dar. Solo.... The irony is that if you actually go back to the game that stamped the MMO trinity that we have today, tanks and pure melees were the helpless ones that needed ferrying around, not healers

So where does this come from? It feels like you're just taking the word 'healer' literally and assuming that the job should have no other facets or depth to it beyond that?

Because they seem to understand that for those asking it'll never be enough. This reminds me of early tanking in the game, way back when they gave players attribute points to use and the option of equipping accessories of the players choice and any tank that didn't assign every last bit of strength that they could to their character, even at the cost of mitigation, was considered an idiot. I can see healers suffering the same fate, if in a different way, where it has become all about optimizing DPS over heals, because it's never enough and NEVER WILL BE ENOUGH.

What? At what point are you referring to? Nobody really understood the game in any real depth in ARR. Coil DPS checks were rare and mostly lenient. The only people who I ever saw get called out were those that genuinely did stupid things like melding or pointing a stat that they genuinely couldn't get any value from. If you're referring to HW with Gordias and to a lesser extent, Midas I can appreciate your point more. Gordias was a *HUGE* shock in terms of the DPS it expected from players, especially after Final Coil. People who were stepping into Savage needed every bit of DPS that they could get their hands on, healers included. ThordanEX was a bit of a wrecking ball as well, so yeah, I can well see this spike in damage requirements filtering down out of the raid scene in the same way that the whole 'Exclude WHM' thing ballooned way out of control in patch 3.5.

Hamstringing an entire role just because certain aspects of the player base are idiots isn't a particularly sound design choice for the long term.

The only acceptable change I could get behind is some other form of entertainment available during the supposedly loathed downtime, but not MORE damage and certainly nothing that will pull attention from healing because healers are coerced into feeling that if they can't squeeze out a full combo then they must be a failure at healing; a mentality that is sure to arise from any sort of combo that effects damage.

Again, this is why I keep preaching that SE should take AST's buff system much further. Let them spend GCDs on cards and balance it from there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WHM at least has five abilities at lv 80 that do direct damage and 10 (11 if you count asylum) that do direct healing. Despite people's complaints about healers being stuck with the 11111 damage rotation, WHM already has half as many damaging abilities as it does direct healing. Sure, you're gonna use glare the most, especially at lower levels, but there's a darn good reason the game doesn't want healers committing to combos.

It's not the number of abilities that's the problem here, it's the fact that we press 1 of them routinely 200+ times in a single fight.

I'd be saying exactly the same thing if we were pressing Cure 1 as frequently.

That's why I will never be convinced that healers should get more in the area of DPS, because I KNOW that however hard and desperately players cry for a bit more, something, anything, from SE to make healers more fun to do things other than heal with, it won't be enough. And worse, if SE finally caves and for some reason gives the DPHealers more sparklies to fling at bosses and trash players will promptly rejoice and sigh saying, "It's about time. They DO listen"

and then

say

"Well, actually. This could use a buff, it's still not enough. It's still pretty weak. This combo is pretty short. I STILL have wasted downtime. Can we get better DoTs? What about more CC?"

Because, for players, it's never going to be enough. DPS abilities are like crack for players. One taste and they gotta have more, and better, and more.

*Dave Chappelle at the window* "Ya'll got any more of them DPS abilities?"

God forbid we expect SE to actually improve our little corner of the game. God f**king forbid.

[Liam_Harper]

I already play the "correct" way, do I have to feel the "correct" way too? I'm not just some number on some ranking sheet, I have my own thoughts, feelings, opinions too. Optimizing my damage while keeping everyone alive is really stressful for me. I just want comfy easy gameplay as a healer

No one's buying that. I'm not a great player but I understand enough about raid optimization to know you don't achieve an overall world top 50 for an entire tier and decide to do hundreds of Savage boss kills + TEA prog if you hate it and it stresses you. At your level, you could probably play with one hand while watching Netflix and still perform more than well enough for any Savage boss. You obviously chose to push your gameplay and optimization that far.

Pulling the "I have feelings" card to validate your trolling is fairly smart, because it makes it look like we're attacking you and your opinions, but I'm sorry, your troll is unraveled. You're bored waiting for the next expansion and raid tier and came to rile up the forums for some kicks, sure. You had your fun, you didn't block fflogs fast enough and got caught, move on.

[Jadkay]

What do you think the natural consequences of optimizing healing are?

You guessed it, free time. Turns out "healing as little as possible" and "not wasting any healing" are in practice, the same thing.

To me, it's not the same thing :

Healing as less as possible can be done by any healer, because they have the choice to not healing at all as some people already doing in that game. As I stated before, because there are 2 healers in 8man content, some players decided to play healer to fill faster in queue, PF or whatever and just spamming 1 dot + 1 dps skill 99% of the time.

Optimising healing is paying attention to not overhealing, so you doesn't waste your mp for nothing but still have the priority to keep your party alive. DPS class doesn't really have issue with their mp but healers do.

In FF14, there are 3 things making people being wrong about what the healer role is :

1. numbers, that a lot of people care more than anything else even more than 'clear content' on some DC and by extension the website know by everyone because they just want to be #1 (and that pretty much being idiot because we all know the theory for healers to be top tiers numbers : almost not healing at all and letting the co-healer doing most of the job, so WHY playing healer in that case ?)
2. giving too many utilities skills to job that doesn't mean to be a support job
3. players who think that they need more dmg from the SUPPORT JOB to clear a content who lead to a paradoxe : why do you think you need healers dps to clear a content while they can only use 1 dot, 1 single target and 1 aoe skill ? (im not talking about those extra dps skill some healers have such as ED). Imo, if the game was meant to need the dps from EVERY JOB existing in it, they would all have big dps kit, no ?

Having 1 dot, 1 single target and 1 aoe skill dps on healers is meant to be able to do quest alone and fill the downtime when you don't need to heal your party but not to be a part of the dps job. I remember the time when we was just asking a healer to heal and people was happy to get a healer who was able to heal and simply help at dps the rest of the time. Now, I feel people want the healer to DPS as much as possible or they doesn't want it in party.

Ofc, this is my personnal opinion and I already know some people will eventually flame me for that.

[GrimGale]

To me, it's not the same thing

Not sure I understand what you said.

"Healing as less as possible can be done by any healer, because they have the choice to not healing at all."

Healing as little as possible means you keep your party alive and none of your healing is wasted. If someone dies, you haven't "healed as little as possible". Minimizing healing has the direct consequence of causing very little overhealing. Meaning your MP is not wasted. Your GCDs are not wasted.

There is a minimum amount of healing in any content: The unavoidable damage that would kill a player. Those healing requirements can go up the more player makes mistakes. Devs have designed 8 man content to require 2 healers in most of the cases. The fact that some healers decide to heal as less as possible and just DPS while their partner focuses on healing and still clear the content is NOT an argument against healer DPS, if anything, it makes evident that there is not enough incoming damage to warrant a second healer.

If anything having healers have so much downtime means the tuning of incomming damage is at fault. It's a design problem from the devs: The fault is not with healers who focus on DPS.

If there is an expectation for healers to DPS it's because game design accomodates such expectation- In any MMO, wether healing dowtime is prevalent or not, if you can chose between a Healer that can keep the party alive, and a Healer that can keep the party alive AND deal damage or contrubute to clear the content in any other way (CC, Buffs, Debuffs) you will always chose the one that can do both.

Throwing "But some healers let their party die to dps" at this argument doesn't work. Because those healers ARE NOT keeping their party alive. We agree that the bare minimum for the role of a healer is to heal their team.

You will clear a fight wether your party members stay at 50% HP during all the fight or 100% HP. Heck, the only HP that matters is the last one. When a healer player becomes more experienced, they can push the limits of their job in their content to make sure they maximize their contribution. As there is nothing else to maximize their contribution to the team beyond DPS that's what they focus on.

[Jadkay]

Devs have designed 8 man content to require 2 healers in most of the cases. The fact that some healers decide to heal as less as possible and just DPS while their partner focuses on healing and still clear the content is NOT an argument against healer DPS, if anything, it makes evident that there is not enough incoming damage to warrant a second healer.

Thats my point, if there is not incoming damage enough for a second healer, why playing healer ? Just make a 2T 1H & 5DPS party. The basic of the game is 2H but the game do not force you to do so. You can even go 8DPS if you want.

If anything having healers have so much downtime means the tuning of incomming damage is at fault. It's a design problem from the devs: The fault is not with healers who focus on DPS.

You will clear a fight wether your party members stay at 50% HP during all the fight or 100% HP. Heck, the only HP that matters is the last one. When a healer player becomes more experienced, they can push the limits of their job in their content to make sure they maximize their contribution. As there is nothing else to maximize their contribution to the team beyond DPS that's what they focus on.

And again, I will write the same, some healers players (me included) like to push to the limits, but the players is forcing all healers playing that way while the game doesn't meant to do it. And the simple fact that the new prohibited things they posted recently prove it : you can't force people playing the way you want but only suggest them. If some players want pro DPS healers, they need to make their own team and stop blaming healers in pf for the lack of DPS and the healer coming in pf for mainly DPSing and not doing their job purpose should also make their own team because that ruin the game experience of some others players.

So, in fact, the problem is not from the game design, but from the players who do not respect others because of the 'udonotpaymysub' meme.

[Sani2341]

Thats my point, if there is not incoming damage enough for a second healer, why playing healer ? Just make a 2T 1H & 5DPS party.

Would you mind showing me the DF setting that allows me to solo heal for my daily roulettes? because I am ususally forced to play with a second healer by the game.

[GrimGale]

I will write the same, some healers players (me included) like to push to the limits, but the players is forcing all healers playing that way while the game doesn't meant to do it. And the simple fact that the new prohibited things they posted recently prove it : you can't force people playing the way you want but only suggest them. If some players want pro DPS healers, they need to make their own team and stop blaming healers in pf for the lack of DPS and the healer coming in pf for mainly DPSing and not doing their job purpose should also make their own team because that ruin the game experience of some others players.

Doesn't change the fact that your DF dungeons for example still require a healer to queue. Glarebroil spam doesn't only happen in 8 mans.

Players cannot force Healers to focus on DPS, what are you talking about. They can chose not to play with you at worst. Just like if you're a bad DPS they can chose not to play with you, or if you're a bad Tank that doesn't take aggro.

Does that mean the devs should design ALL the Jobs to be stale? It's clear having less buttons doesn't make healers heal more. It only makes people that could juggle healing and DPS bored out of their minds!

If your issue is player behavior, you have now more than ever the tools to cull that behaviour. What the does that have to do with class design? The fact that DPS buttons exist doesn't mean you have to use them on a healer. Player expectation might be there but as you said your role is healer. The bare minimum is keeping people alive.

You can blame rudeness but you can't blame players for expecting more than the bare minimum!

[VeolE]

Big Snipe

Whoa there partner, I think your reading comprehension is terrible.

The healer mains are asking for a couple of simple solution, like literally.

"Asking said content to do more damage in general." so they can use their new healer tools, but they can't even get that option because the devs think it'll be too hard or stressful for the casual players..... like why....

And you can't be serious when you think the healers are "ASKING FOR MORE DAMAGE" lol no dude, they asking for more DPS OPTION! And you can't lie that spamming 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 is soooo boring. Hell, I dont even MAIN healer and I can feel their pain. Like an extra 1 or 2 dps buttons won't hurt at all. Like seriously
( I wish they bring back Miasma and bane for SCH. And Aero 3 for WHM...)

Since you're a DRK main like me...... your job stone.... hand it over my friend.

[Sebazy]

Thats my point, if there is not incoming damage enough for a second healer, why playing healer ? Just make a 2T 1H & 5DPS party. The basic of the game is 2H but the game do not force you to do so. You can even go 8DPS if you want.

Not an option for DF content generally. Plenty of people do oddball group comps with statics and at best you'll sometimes see Primal farms and such pop up as solo heal. But that is the exception to the rule with many fights having healer specific mechanics that make a solo heal run problematic.

And again, I will write the same, some healers players (me included) like to push to the limits.

The only thing getting pushed to the limits in casual content is the paint on my Glare key.

Put the DPS thing aside for just a moment. This isn't about healers specifically wanting to sit there DPSing. It's about healers having some kind of involving gameplay in often multiple minutes we see between anything happening that affects us in the slightest in all levels of content. I suspect most of the people that are angry over this would be happy with just about anything that doesn't involve pressing the same button potentially 200+ times in a single fight.

, but the players is forcing all healers playing that way while the game doesn't meant to do it. And the simple fact that the new prohibited things they posted recently prove it : you can't force people playing the way you want but only suggest them.

Answer me this: Picture the scene.... You queue up for 24 man, you get a WHM co healer who maintains Medica II and blasts Cure IIs at anyone who gets so much as a scratch. They are overhealing everything which is absolutely fine, no issues there. Tell me, what do you do when you get a co-healer like this in a 24 man dungeon?

If some players want pro DPS healers, they need to make their own team and stop blaming healers in pf for the lack of DPS and the healer coming in pf for mainly DPSing and not doing their job purpose should also make their own team because that ruin the game experience of some others players.

So, in fact, the problem is not from the game design, but from the players who do not respect others because of the 'udonotpaymysub' meme.

Have you ever considered that the comically low expectations and demands on the healers in most content is perhaps the very reason we see so many borderline afk healers that are content to just auto follow and mash a singlular button? No other role can get away with that so readily in 8/24 man content. There is literally zero difficulty curve to end game healing until you hit Extremes and Savage. Casual full party content can be reliably 'cleared' and 'beaten' whilst face down for the entirety of it.

It's absolutely a design problem. People's bad attitudes are a result of the design that encourages and rewards such a terrible standard of play.