SE FINALLY ANSWERED THE HEALERS COMMUNITY LONG ANSWERED QUESTION

[WaxSw]

Please don't put words in my mouth. Not the same, though what's there is there.

To say there's no choice at all is an overstatement

Ok, let me rephrase it better then "You only have choice maybe once or twice per minute", in effective terms is basically the same as no choice at all when compared with any other job that is not healers.

*sigh* If you only care about damage, we have nothing more to say on this matter

If you think damage is all I'm talking about you're not understanding what I'm saying at all

I don't think that way though. That's just a perspective.

No, its not. Healers spending over 70%+ of their time dpsing is a fact, and if you think that what you do over 70% of the time is something "secondary" I'd check the deffinition of secondary again.

Just an example to show you a different perspective

Once again its not a perspective, just look at any log from healers and them spending over 50-70% of the time dpsing remains constant unless you look at something like curebots, which shoudn't be cattered to anyways.

but it seems to me you firmly believe more dps is the only solution

Yes, they must dps correlated because is the only thing left in the design of the game that is not content reliant and can be used anytime but they don't have to be dps actions in the way of straight attacks, as I said previously "I'm saying dps kit as buffs, debuffs, dots, cooldowns and interactions not only more straight attacks"

Cause and effect

oGCDs are not the cause when if we removed them entirely from the game and made us rely on gcds only we would still have for every bit of downtime a boring kit with poor to none interactions. If the effect remains but the cause is gone then what you've removed is not the cause.

[Aword3213]

Ok, let me rephrase it better then "You only have choice maybe once or twice per minute", in effective terms is basically the same as no choice at all when compared with any other job that is not healers.

If you prog, as a prog healer you should have had your fair share of choices already.
Surely a top tier healer like you made plenty of choices during Cycle of Faith in E11S when progging
Surely a top tier healer like you made choices about when to delay your heals during farming.

There're times you made more choices, there are times you made less choices. Fair is fair

Besides, you said it yourself. There's only 1 optimal way to play in each job. What choice do they have

If you think damage is all I'm talking about you're not understanding what I'm saying at all

You don't. I don't.
We're on different channel

No, its not. Healers spending over 70%+ of their time dpsing is a fact

Your tools are too effective to finish your job so you can have plenty of time to do your secondary job.

My 15 years of carpentry experience allows me to work 3 hours a day, which allows me to spend 6 hours on leatherworking as a hobby.

I'd check the deffinition of secondary again.

Check harder I beg of you.

I don't want a healer who thinks healing is secondary on my team.

Once again its not a perspective, just look at any log from healers and them spending over 50-70% of the time dpsing remains constant unless you look at something like curebots, which shoudn't be cattered to anyways.

The fact is there, but you only see the 70% and want to make that interesting.
I see the reason behind that 70% and want to address the cause of it. Hopefully making everything(100%) we do interesting

Adding more dps options only makes dealing damage as a healer not boring. The healing aspect of the game still needs to be addressed.

Yes, they must dps correlated because is the only thing left in the design of the game that is not content reliant and can be used anytime

I wish you good luck, but I perfer to keep my mind open to many possibilities.

When the log indicates healers spend over 70% of time doing dps, I don't consider making dealing damage insteresting is the only solution. There are yet another 30% to worry about. Both aspects,healing and damage, should be interactive and interesting.

oGCDs are not the cause when if we removed them entirely from the game and made us rely on gcds only we would still have for every bit of downtime a boring kit with poor to none interactions. If the effect remains but the cause is gone then what you've removed is not the cause.

That's a bit extreme of you reaching a conlcusion that we should remove all oGCDs.
Not my conclusion though.

[WaxSw]

If you prog, as a prog healer you should have had your fair share of choices already.
Surely a top tier healer like you made plenty of choices during Cycle of Faith in E11S.

You mean the only time in that fight where you have actually heal? There is more choices there, close to none in the rest of the fight, on average E11s healing check is nothing to write home about and even there nowadays most groups skip it or you can still wing it with 3-4 cooldowns each healer at best.

My 15 years of carpentry experience allows me to work 3 hours a day, which allows me to spend 6 hours on leatherworking as a hobby.

Your job is both heal and dps not only heal (carpentry) if you got paid by leatherworking then it would be a nice comparision but by then you'd be more of a leatherworker than a carpenter.

I don't want a healer who think healing is secondary on my team.

Who said healing is secondary? I sure did not but I don't treat dps as secondary either, especially when I do it most of the time and all of the meta revolves around getting it higher.

Adding more dps options only makes dealing damage as a healer not boring. The healing aspect of the game still needs to be addressed.

I agree on that but at least in the way I see it, let's fix first what is the majority of we do and then fix the other side of the job, especially when the dps side is the only thing that we'll interact all the time with, no matter if the enemy is doing damage or not, ideally both should be fixed at the same time but I think thats beyond the realm of SE's job designers capabilities.

That's a bit extreme of you reaching a conlcusion that we should remove all oGCDs.

Its a reduction to the extreme to show why ogcds by itself alone are not the problem, if they were gone the problem would remain hence the root of the problem is not there.

[Aword3213]

You mean the only time in that fight where you have actually heal? There is more choices there, close to none in the rest of the fight, on average E11s healing check is nothing to write home about and even there nowadays most groups skip it or you can still wing it with 3-4 cooldowns each healer at best.

So the choices is there. Let's not resort to extreme will you?

Your job is both heal and dps not only heal (carpentry) if you got paid by leatherworking then it would be a nice comparision but by then you'd be more of a leatherworker than a carpenter.

I'll let you in a little secret. I do get paid. I'm still a carpenter because I'm registered in a guild. You're registered as a healer.

Who said healing is secondary? I sure did not but I don't treat dps as secondary either, especially when I do it most of the time and all of the meta revolves around getting it higher.

So what's is primary and what is secondary on the log you're looking at? We were talking about perspectives.

Its a reduction to the extreme to show why ogcds by itself alone are not the problem, if they were gone the problem would remain hence the root of the problem is not there.

You took it to extreme and simulated a result in your head, claiming the problem would remian. That's really not a good way to reach a conclusion, and very unfair I would say.

[HappyHubris]

This is sort of academic. Square-Enix isn't going to massively rework healing output required for anything but say capstone Savage and Ultimate content, as they're terrified of alienating weaker players. They've also said directly that damage complexity is off the table, as it would further differentiate players by skill and could alienate weaker players.

So if you enjoy healy sparkles, stay with healer. If you want an engaging rotation and/or high skill ceiling outside of top content, go DPS.

[WaxSw]

So the choices is there. Let's not resort to extreme will you?

This is just being petty for the sake of being petty, yes, you may have a choice when damage happens but happens so infrequently and with so low intensisty that the choice may as well not be there because its barely impactful in our gameplay contrary to what other roles have, and in the dps side we don't have any choice, once the dot is up all we can do is spam over and over and over which is the point I was saying to beging with,

I'll let you in a little secret. I do get paid. I'm still a carpenter because I'm registered in a guild. You're registered as a healer.

You don't get paid for your leatherworking as carpenter, I do get paid (get clears) for my dps as healer because thats part of my job, that's the difference.

So what's is primary and what is secondary on the log you're looking at? We were talking about perspectives.

Ok, let me put it straight, DPS is king, no matter the role, healers too. We use offensive spells and party support most of the time as healers to provide dps to our group, we heal to avoid deaths which can cause further dps losses, we rez because letting that player dead is a bigger dps loss, we cleanse debuffs for the same reason, in this game we're all dps with some side tasks and the main difference is that the green dps doesn't get to enjoy what they do most of their time.

You took it to extreme and simulated a result in your head, claiming the problem would remian. That's really not a good way to reach a conclusion, and very unfair I would say.

Not really? You admit it yourself that downtime will always be there and as long as its rotation is the same as now will still be problematic, so if we go to the extreme of removing all oGCDs, reducing that downtime as now we would have to use gcds to heal, some downtime will still be there and then we still would have a problematic part of our kit, hence why ogcds are not the cause of the effect, because when removed the cause the effect would remain.

[Aword3213]

yes, you may have a choice when damage happens but happens so infrequently and with so low intensisty that the choice may as well not be there because its barely impactful in our gameplay contrary to what other roles have, and in the dps side we don't have any choice, once the dot is up all we can do is spam over and over and over which is the point I was saying to beging with,

It's not impactful becuase it's easy to recover from taking damage with single button press, which always happens to be oGCDs.

You don't get paid for your leatherworking as carpenter, I do get paid (get clears) for my dps as healer because thats part of my job, that's the difference.

It's part of it but it's secondary. You as a healer only get to do dps once you have finished your primary job, healing, before the next incoming damage. You spend lots of time doing your secondary job because of the effectiveness of the tools in your kit.

If the tools are not effective, you have to spend more time doing your primary job, resulting in less time doing your secondary job.

You have to know that my idea was never about removing all of our oGCD healings.Their effectiveness is part of the problem. Adding more dps options does not solve the problem. It only serves a shinning outfit trying to cover the flaws on healing design. There're many other ways to address this, but removing all oGCDs is not one of them.

in this game we're all dps with some side tasks and the main difference is that the green dps doesn't get to enjoy what they do most of their time.

And asking for dps is not the only way because what you really spend most of the time doing is caused by many factors, but in your previous reply you were deadset on dps option alone.

Not really? You admit it yourself that downtime will always be there and as long as its rotation is the same as now will still be problematic, so if we go to the extreme of removing all oGCDs, reducing that downtime as now we would have to use gcds to heal, some downtime will still be there and then we still would have a problematic part of our kit, hence why ogcds are not the cause of the effect, because when removed the cause the effect would remain.

You can't just take other's idea to an extreme and expect to persuade anyone.
If I were to do it the same way, will you be perusaded?
"Current healers can still contribute 10% of total raid dps. Therefore they are fine as they were. Boredom is a subjective thing and thus cannot be used to form an arguement.There's no need to add more dps option."

"Adding more offensive actions would require more buttons which leads to button bloat. In which case, SQEX will have to reduce the healing actions we currently have, leading them being limited to do what they're currently trying to do, enhancing healing aspect on healers based on new encounter design"

[Semirhage]

And asking for dps is not the only way because what you really spend most of the time doing is caused by many factors, but in your previous reply you were deadset on dps option alone.

Squeenix is dead-set against adding difficulty or complexity anywhere in the healer kits. DPS is just the easiest fix, because it's currently in the most dull state. In my opinion, the healer kits aren't particularly well-designed. There's hardly any interaction between abilities, the few interactions they do have are often barebones "this buffs the next spell" or "this adds X potency for Y seconds". Given infinite budget and a designer that actually cares about the healer role, I'd rework pretty much all of 'em (MAYBE except Astro). DPS isn't the -only- thing that would fix the role, but it should absolutely be one of the things they fix. How is 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 acceptable for any class design in any game? It's awful. It's boring. It's a snooze. It makes MSQ progression a tedious snorefest. Every solo duty is Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone. That's wretchedly bad. And if the design team thinks healers aren't capable of handling more than that, they're incorrect. No DPS player would ever put up with a MSQ experience like that.

[CrimsonGunner]

Squeenix is dead-set against adding difficulty or complexity anywhere in the healer kits. DPS is just the easiest fix, because it's currently in the most dull state. In my opinion, the healer kits aren't particularly well-designed. There's hardly any interaction between abilities, the few interactions they do have are often barebones "this buffs the next spell" or "this adds X potency for Y seconds". Given infinite budget and a designer that actually cares about the healer role, I'd rework pretty much all of 'em (MAYBE except Astro). DPS isn't the -only- thing that would fix the role, but it should absolutely be one of the things they fix. How is 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 acceptable for any class design in any game? It's awful. It's boring. It's a snooze. It makes MSQ progression a tedious snorefest. Every solo duty is Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone. That's wretchedly bad. And if the design team thinks healers aren't capable of handling more than that, they're incorrect. No DPS player would ever put up with a MSQ experience like that.

as i said before ,lets see yoshida have his blm getting stripped from his core and he just play fire fire fire fire fire fire through an entire run and see how he likes it.

[ASkellington]

However, soloing content and doing low difficulty duties as current healers are dull indeed. This is a desgin flaw there's no denying that. But to say there's no playstyle exists between healers is hyperbole.

It is, but it isn't. The healers "technically" have different playstyles. What healers don't have, is different heal styles. Which, is apart of their play style. There is no regen healer (meaning you heal primarily or solely through regens because your on demand or burst heals cost too much mana or don't heal as much). We don't have a shield healer, and aren't gaining one in 6.0. I say this because both of them have powerful regens and other avenues of healing that should be put on pure healers instead. We have the foundations for these in game, but they don't fully exist no.

Now would I love for more healing diversity. Yes. Are we going to get it? No. Why?

Because to make, say, AST into a regen healer that would be raising its skillfloor. Which SE doesn't want.

Though why only SGE gets to be a "complex" healer I'll never understand. WE DO HAVE 4 HEALERS IN 6.0 RIGHT? TWO OF THEM CAN'T BE COMPLEX?!