SE FINALLY ANSWERED THE HEALERS COMMUNITY LONG ANSWERED QUESTION

[WaxSw]

So the choices is there. Let's not resort to extreme will you?

This is just being petty for the sake of being petty, yes, you may have a choice when damage happens but happens so infrequently and with so low intensisty that the choice may as well not be there because its barely impactful in our gameplay contrary to what other roles have, and in the dps side we don't have any choice, once the dot is up all we can do is spam over and over and over which is the point I was saying to beging with,

I'll let you in a little secret. I do get paid. I'm still a carpenter because I'm registered in a guild. You're registered as a healer.

You don't get paid for your leatherworking as carpenter, I do get paid (get clears) for my dps as healer because thats part of my job, that's the difference.

So what's is primary and what is secondary on the log you're looking at? We were talking about perspectives.

Ok, let me put it straight, DPS is king, no matter the role, healers too. We use offensive spells and party support most of the time as healers to provide dps to our group, we heal to avoid deaths which can cause further dps losses, we rez because letting that player dead is a bigger dps loss, we cleanse debuffs for the same reason, in this game we're all dps with some side tasks and the main difference is that the green dps doesn't get to enjoy what they do most of their time.

You took it to extreme and simulated a result in your head, claiming the problem would remian. That's really not a good way to reach a conclusion, and very unfair I would say.

Not really? You admit it yourself that downtime will always be there and as long as its rotation is the same as now will still be problematic, so if we go to the extreme of removing all oGCDs, reducing that downtime as now we would have to use gcds to heal, some downtime will still be there and then we still would have a problematic part of our kit, hence why ogcds are not the cause of the effect, because when removed the cause the effect would remain.

[Aword3213]

yes, you may have a choice when damage happens but happens so infrequently and with so low intensisty that the choice may as well not be there because its barely impactful in our gameplay contrary to what other roles have, and in the dps side we don't have any choice, once the dot is up all we can do is spam over and over and over which is the point I was saying to beging with,

It's not impactful becuase it's easy to recover from taking damage with single button press, which always happens to be oGCDs.

You don't get paid for your leatherworking as carpenter, I do get paid (get clears) for my dps as healer because thats part of my job, that's the difference.

It's part of it but it's secondary. You as a healer only get to do dps once you have finished your primary job, healing, before the next incoming damage. You spend lots of time doing your secondary job because of the effectiveness of the tools in your kit.

If the tools are not effective, you have to spend more time doing your primary job, resulting in less time doing your secondary job.

You have to know that my idea was never about removing all of our oGCD healings.Their effectiveness is part of the problem. Adding more dps options does not solve the problem. It only serves a shinning outfit trying to cover the flaws on healing design. There're many other ways to address this, but removing all oGCDs is not one of them.

in this game we're all dps with some side tasks and the main difference is that the green dps doesn't get to enjoy what they do most of their time.

And asking for dps is not the only way because what you really spend most of the time doing is caused by many factors, but in your previous reply you were deadset on dps option alone.

Not really? You admit it yourself that downtime will always be there and as long as its rotation is the same as now will still be problematic, so if we go to the extreme of removing all oGCDs, reducing that downtime as now we would have to use gcds to heal, some downtime will still be there and then we still would have a problematic part of our kit, hence why ogcds are not the cause of the effect, because when removed the cause the effect would remain.

You can't just take other's idea to an extreme and expect to persuade anyone.
If I were to do it the same way, will you be perusaded?
"Current healers can still contribute 10% of total raid dps. Therefore they are fine as they were. Boredom is a subjective thing and thus cannot be used to form an arguement.There's no need to add more dps option."

"Adding more offensive actions would require more buttons which leads to button bloat. In which case, SQEX will have to reduce the healing actions we currently have, leading them being limited to do what they're currently trying to do, enhancing healing aspect on healers based on new encounter design"

[Semirhage]

And asking for dps is not the only way because what you really spend most of the time doing is caused by many factors, but in your previous reply you were deadset on dps option alone.

Squeenix is dead-set against adding difficulty or complexity anywhere in the healer kits. DPS is just the easiest fix, because it's currently in the most dull state. In my opinion, the healer kits aren't particularly well-designed. There's hardly any interaction between abilities, the few interactions they do have are often barebones "this buffs the next spell" or "this adds X potency for Y seconds". Given infinite budget and a designer that actually cares about the healer role, I'd rework pretty much all of 'em (MAYBE except Astro). DPS isn't the -only- thing that would fix the role, but it should absolutely be one of the things they fix. How is 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 acceptable for any class design in any game? It's awful. It's boring. It's a snooze. It makes MSQ progression a tedious snorefest. Every solo duty is Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone. That's wretchedly bad. And if the design team thinks healers aren't capable of handling more than that, they're incorrect. No DPS player would ever put up with a MSQ experience like that.

[CrimsonGunner]

Squeenix is dead-set against adding difficulty or complexity anywhere in the healer kits. DPS is just the easiest fix, because it's currently in the most dull state. In my opinion, the healer kits aren't particularly well-designed. There's hardly any interaction between abilities, the few interactions they do have are often barebones "this buffs the next spell" or "this adds X potency for Y seconds". Given infinite budget and a designer that actually cares about the healer role, I'd rework pretty much all of 'em (MAYBE except Astro). DPS isn't the -only- thing that would fix the role, but it should absolutely be one of the things they fix. How is 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 acceptable for any class design in any game? It's awful. It's boring. It's a snooze. It makes MSQ progression a tedious snorefest. Every solo duty is Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone. That's wretchedly bad. And if the design team thinks healers aren't capable of handling more than that, they're incorrect. No DPS player would ever put up with a MSQ experience like that.

as i said before ,lets see yoshida have his blm getting stripped from his core and he just play fire fire fire fire fire fire through an entire run and see how he likes it.

[ASkellington]

Squeenix is dead-set against adding difficulty or complexity anywhere in the healer kits. DPS is just the easiest fix, because it's currently in the most dull state. In my opinion, the healer kits aren't particularly well-designed. There's hardly any interaction between abilities, the few interactions they do have are often barebones "this buffs the next spell" or "this adds X potency for Y seconds". Given infinite budget and a designer that actually cares about the healer role, I'd rework pretty much all of 'em (MAYBE except Astro). DPS isn't the -only- thing that would fix the role, but it should absolutely be one of the things they fix. How is 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 acceptable for any class design in any game? It's awful. It's boring. It's a snooze. It makes MSQ progression a tedious snorefest. Every solo duty is Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone Stone. That's wretchedly bad. And if the design team thinks healers aren't capable of handling more than that, they're incorrect. No DPS player would ever put up with a MSQ experience like that.

I am under the assumption that the devs don't think anyone in their right mind would go through the MSQ as healer from start to finish.

..I wonder what that says about me since I've done that 3 times now.

[FTP]

I am under the assumption that the devs don't think anyone in their right mind would go through the MSQ as healer from start to finish.

..I wonder what that says about me since I've done that 3 times now.

Hehe. I'm about to finish the MSQ for the first time, as whm. Looking back on those three months since I downloaded the game, I have to agree with those devs. Bad choice as a first job.

Anyway.

I want to take exception with those who defend our dps because beginners. If the current design philosophy is intended to draw in new players, my opinion is they have failed.

Almost all solo play has been absolutely monotonous. For the first few days this is fine as there is a lot to take in, but turns out it stays the same for 80 levels. Press 7 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Firmly planted at the absolute healing skill floor, leveling through the various duties haven't always been too enjoyable gameplay either. Runs have been from OK to increasingly not a good time. The problem is however NOT that healer dps is too complex, it's the age of FFXIV. Before you have typed out "Hi, my first time here", the tank has pulled the first three groups and is long since out of los around the corner for two more. And when the megapull is stabilised, in a misguided, suboptimal, frenzied 5-6 gcds or so, it's back to dps monotony... 7 6 3 6 + 6 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

It's not clear where to learn the more advanced skillset, and get its basics on muscle memory, because in easier content it's synced away. An at-level run is too busy to learn well. So beginner friendly, it is not.

[ASkellington]

I want to take exception with those who defend our dps because beginners. If the current design philosophy is intended to draw in new players, my opinion is they have failed.

Almost all solo play has been absolutely monotonous. For the first few days this is fine as there is a lot to take in, but turns out it stays the same for 80 levels. Press 7 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Firmly planted at the absolute healing skill floor, leveling through the various duties haven't always been too enjoyable gameplay either. Runs have been from OK to increasingly not a good time. The problem is however NOT that healer dps is too complex, it's the age of FFXIV. Before you have typed out "Hi, my first time here", the tank has pulled the first three groups and is long since out of los around the corner for two more. And when the megapull is stabilised, in a misguided, suboptimal, frenzied 5-6 gcds or so, it's back to dps monotony... 7 6 3 6 + 6 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

It's not clear where to learn the more advanced skillset, and get its basics on muscle memory, because in easier content it's synced away. An at-level run is too busy to learn well. So beginner friendly, it is not.

I've been meaning to respond to this thought of how I could for a while now and ultimately decided on my experience alone (note- Diurnal AST when I got accessed to it in HW):

From start to finish in... 5.08? I think I started (somewhere along there... maybe?). I was able to heal all MSQ content (so required dungeons raids and trials) with GCDs, ED, and the occasional CO and CU.
I didn't learn to use the rest of my kit until I purposefully tried using it over those abilities (and I got more tanks who were wall to wall pulling).

Now knowing how to use my entire kit, I still don't. Why? Because Horoscope, Neutral Sect, and Collective Unconsciousness are 100% unnecessary when I have Earthly Star and/or Celestial Opposition. I literally have to force myself to use them over the other two because all of them share the same recast timer of 60s (bar Neutral but I don't need its shields anyway... nor want them) and out going damage is scripted enough that if every one plays perfectly I'll always have ES or CO up.

I have more fun at 70 and sometimes 60 than I ever do at 80.

This isn't including EX and Savage and lv80 Alliance Raids... but even still

Take that as you will.

[NobleWinter]

I've been meaning to respond to this thought of how I could for a while now and ultimately decided on my experience alone (note- Diurnal AST when I got accessed to it in HW):

From start to finish in... 5.08? I think I started (somewhere along there... maybe?). I was able to heal all MSQ content (so required dungeons raids and trials) with GCDs, ED, and the occasional CO and CU.
I didn't learn to use the rest of my kit until I purposefully tried using it over those abilities (and I got more tanks who were wall to wall pulling).

Now knowing how to use my entire kit, I still don't. Why? Because Horoscope, Neutral Sect, and Collective Unconsciousness are 100% unnecessary when I have Earthly Star and/or Celestial Opposition. I literally have to force myself to use them over the other two because all of them share the same recast timer of 60s (bar Neutral but I don't need its shields anyway... nor want them) and out going damage is scripted enough that if every one plays perfectly I'll always have ES or CO up.

I have more fun at 70 and sometimes 60 than I ever do at 80.

This isn't including EX and Savage and lv80 Alliance Raids... but even still

Take that as you will.

I enjoy Scholar becuase of the strict healing rotation. It requires thought becuase every action doesnt work together well. It is able to clear content if I know the kit well and that feels exceptionally rewarding. When they buffed Astro to high Heaven by increasing all it's potencies and reducing every cooldown to 60 seconds it felt terrible for the same reason Scholar felt great. I feel like they are definitely on the right track with the job but I think it actually needs it's GCD heals removed. The job would be more fun to me personally if Essential Dignity was on a 20 second recast and it learned all the oGCDs it has earlier. The job would feel better if it was Malefic spam and oGCD's to heal and buff where you went through a rotation of NECESSARY oGCDs and not just superfluous ones on top of standard Helios and Benefic as backups. If we actually had to use every skill in the kit it would be really engaging to get a new skill instead of a let down when you notice the game doesn't require you to use most of them. Can you imagine how wild dungeon runs at low level would be if we werent spamming Benefic but instead waiting for Earthly star to explode and hoping for Essential Dignity to come back off cooldown with Celestial Opposition as our only other option. Im sure we could make it thru dungeons just fine with two charges of ED from the start and it would really seperate Astro from being an extravagant clone of WHM.

[WaxSw]

It's not impactful becuase it's easy to recover from taking damage with single button press, which always happens to be oGCDs.

Not in reality, even if we take the power of OGCDs down and rely more on GCD healing then we'll rely more on the most boring, poorly designed and non interactive heals of our kit, wether we like or not for the majority of healers the best designed tools are in the oGCD heal/cooldown kit so reducing their impact to make us use more succors, adlos, cure 2s, benefic2 etc... would only increase the number of generic actions we do per fight and for every tiny bit of downtime that happens the problem of lackluster dps kit would remain there.

You as a healer only get to do dps once you have finished your primary job, healing, before the next incoming damage

Not really, as long as the heal is done before the threat (to not get the dps loss of deaths) it doesn't matter when we heal so damage happening doesn't strictly stops our downtime immediatly.

Adding more dps options does not solve the problem.

It actually does to some extent, our problem is having big quantities of low quality downtime, if we make that downtime high quality then the problem would simply fade away, no one complains about having big quantities of something enjoyable.

but in your previous reply you were deadset on dps option alone.

As stated previously and in past replies, the problem of healers is having big quantities of low quality downtime, you can tackle that in 2 ways, either make it high quality (better downtime rotation in the way of buffs/attacks/interactions etc) or make it less quantity, I'm dead set on the first one because is simply the easiest to implement as the second one would require a game rework and a fundamental change to our healing kit that would more likely than not cause an increase in the skill floor that everyone tries to avoid.

You can't just take other's idea to an extreme and expect to persuade anyone

You do you then but I didn't really say any lie there.

A=Our downtime kit is boring to use
B=Downtime is unavoidable even when reducing the importance of oGCDs

A+B=We still have unavoidable periods of time were we use a boring kit

Both arguments you said for example can be argued against but I'm just gonna say

"Adding more offensive actions would require more buttons which leads to button bloat. In which case, SQEX will have to reduce the healing actions we currently have [...]"

YES PLS, besides with the introduction of toggle skills that shoudn't be such a problem, also there are actions whose removal/rework would hardly impact the job's gameplay (looking at you physick/cure/benefic)

[QooEr]

also there are actions whose removal/rework would hardly impact the job's gameplay (looking at you physick/cure/benefic)

and fey blessing... i mean seriously who thought a heal as "strong" as a single miserable regen tick deserved to be in sch's kit more than miasma or bane