Dark Knight Megathread

[Ryaduera]

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"Just play something else" will NEVER EVER be an acceptable response to any issues in any game. People want to play DRK, and they want to enjoy it. The class MUST be good and well made. Why should a job even exist if everyone who wants to enjoy it would have more fun literally not playing it? This shows a profound lack in understanding of how game balance work. Not all balance is numbers. Playing EVERYTHING must be enjoyable or why even have it?

-snip-

The problem with Dark Missionary is that it already exists 2 more times as of EW. RDM gets it and GNB has it. If multiple classes have the same thing, one will do it better than the other, and in this case, why even need it on a tank if you have a RDM? Pair it with tank shielding and have the RDM pop it and the DRK will sit there twiddling his thumbs because stacking defensive cooldowns is inefficient. DRK doesn't need something better it needs something unique that is universally useful since all tanks have that except GNB which makes up for it with it's ability to go full doomslayer and rip and tear their DPS to compensate for being 3 DPS in a suit of platemail.

[WhyAmIHere]

-snip-

Have you even bothered to read any of the feedback folks have been giving in this thread? Why come in here saying you *know* why everyone's complaining... only to be pretty far off the mark?
Yes DRK is simple and easy to learn. That is both not a problem, and the problem. In simplifying DRK throughout the expansions, so much of it's kit has been stripped away to the point where it's near indistinguishable from WAR in terms of core gameplay loop.

Sure, some folks wanna bring back HW DRK; and sure, some folks might even want SB DRK back. The problem is that DRK is in this limbo of an identity crisis, and every expansion is more of a letdown than the last. People want to play a job that's identity isn't "WAR but it has TBN." People want to have fun playing a job, and to see in EW that it gets nothing in terms of a skill upgrade is insulting to those that were hoping to see it be given it's own identity. Hell, even WAR gets a finisher to Inner Release in EW. PLD's are getting a whole-ass new combo out of Requiescat. GNB's getting a 3rd cartridge and a 2 cartridge spender. WAR and GNB's invulns are being extended to 10s duration.

DRK is getting Enhanced Unmend and Salt and Peppered Earth.

There's an obvious disparity and lack of work put in to DRK in EW compared to the other tanks, despite the entirety of ShB there being numerous complaints about it in these forums. The EN forum's complaints have gone unheard and unacknowledged as evidenced by YoshiP not even being aware that there've been complaints about Blood Weapon's duration (along with Hyperdrive as far as high-ping issues go).

"Well if you don't like it just play a different job!"
People've done that. People will do that. People have already stated, here and JP, that EW DRK is a letdown and that the devs should look in to ways to improve it. 'Just play something else' is also an incredulously rude tone to take, as you yourself said that there're folks that play it for the cool factor being a DRK provides that, until EW and Reaper's reveal, were unmatched elsewhere.

I care not for your dismissive approach here.

[Ryaduera]

You mean once more, since GNB already has it currently.

But why is that any sort of issue? 10% magic damage over 15s is a strong ability, hence why it didn't get changed. RDM getting it doesn't devalue the fact DM/HoL are still crazy strong against certain fight designs that shields fall flat in. All 3 ranged have 10% damage reduction over 15s and that doesn't devalue DM/HoL either. If anything, it values bringing DRK, GNB & RDM to fights where massive aoe burns are happening.



You realize DM/HoL will still be 9% even if a RDM pops it first, right? 9% on tons of hits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any % shield.
The RDM won't just be popping it. If the damage is high enough like in Tumult -> voice or Ahk Morn -> Morn afah scenarios, guess what? Both of them will be popping it. or better yet, you ration them out like in Wrym's lament 2 when Shiva does ahk morn -Morn afah 3x back to back. You could have RDM cover one set, DRk cover another, GNb cover the 3rd.

Just because the same skill is present on multiple jobs doesn't devalue its power.

This is bait, right? This HAS to be bait, right? It's like you ignored EVERYTHING I said and then started spewing something totally random based on a handful of experiences and conveniently ignored my explanation, and you even quoted and edited it into your old post as if you have no idea how a forum works. I don't even owe this level of trolling an explanation. But I'll dumb it down for you.

The problem isn't that Dark Passenger is bad. It is that it is not unique and it is redundant. THat doesn't devalue power, it devalues the class that is weaker or less enjoyable when they have the exact same feature, which is DRK and that is the problem.

[Shin96]

"Well if you don't like it just play a different job!"
People've done that. People will do that. People have already stated, here and JP, that EW DRK is a letdown and that the devs should look in to ways to improve it. 'Just play something else' is also an incredulously rude tone to take, as you yourself said that there're folks that play it for the cool factor being a DRK provides that, until EW and Reaper's reveal, were unmatched elsewhere.

Don't bother wasting your time on that mantra. Play something else has become the go-to excuse for anyone that cannot critically assess the components of the situation.

It's so simple in essence though. You are a tank, you want an edgy job, optimally it should be sophisticated enough to entertain you. It's not hard to grasp, yet, it seems rather easy to fluctuate towards disregarding any valid criticisms as long as it's comfortable to them. Good thing Reaper is here to join us.

Cult positivity at it again. Let's drown the voice of dissent and distaste for what this job has become; it's easier to ignore than put a sliver of thought into it. That surely will fix this job and the disappointments that will ensue later.

[Ryaduera]

Don't bother wasting your time on that mantra. Play something else has become the go-to excuse for anyone that cannot critically asses the components of the situation.

It's so simple in essence though. You are a tank, you want an edgy job, optimally it should be sophisticated enough to entertain you. It's not hard to grasp, yet, it seems rather easy to fluctuate towards disregarding any valid criticisms as long as it's comfortable to them. Good thing Reaper is here to join us.

Cult positivity at it again. Let's drown the voice of dissent and distaste for what this job has become; it's easier to ignore than put a sliver of thought into it. That surely will fix this job and the disappointments that will ensue later.

I agree. Being content with mediocrity and failure just because something else was better is the enemy. Playing something else is an option, but it is not an excuse nor does it forgive bad design, the bad design subtracts from the experience as a whole. This kind of mentality comes from someone who doesn't play the class to begin with. "But I'm having a good time?????" And we aren't. Your point?

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

This is bait, right? This HAS to be bait, right? It's like you ignored EVERYTHING I said and then started spewing something totally random based on a handful of experiences and conveniently ignored my explanation, and you even quoted and edited it into your old post as if you have no idea how a forum works. I don't even owe this level of trolling an explanation. But I'll dumb it down for you.

The problem isn't that Dark Passenger is bad. It is that it is not unique and it is redundant. THat doesn't devalue power, it devalues the class that is weaker or less enjoyable when they have the exact same feature, which is DRK and that is the problem.

Because I'm running out of posts for the day and I still have multiple other topics I want to post in tonight is why, so I thought I'd save some with a simple edit.

But just to humor you, let me say this: Trying to make things unique is how the devs ended up giving DRK Living Dead. Not everything has to be unique for the sake of it. Dark Missionary is so far away from needing any sort of uniqueness over function when three quarters of the DRK kit needs that attention far more. Besides, my initial post was about the function of the skill and correcting someone, not its flair which is irrelevant.

[WhyAmIHere]

Don't bother wasting your time on that mantra. Play something else has become the go-to excuse for anyone that cannot critically assess the components of the situation.

It's so simple in essence though. You are a tank, you want an edgy job, optimally it should be sophisticated enough to entertain you. It's not hard to grasp, yet, it seems rather easy to fluctuate towards disregarding any valid criticisms as long as it's comfortable to them. Good thing Reaper is here to join us.

Cult positivity at it again. Let's drown the voice of dissent and distaste for what this job has become; it's easier to ignore than put a sliver of thought into it. That surely will fix this job and the disappointments that will ensue later.

A larger reason I have issue with the "just play something else" is it's so dismissive of others. "Oh you're depressed? Get over it, you don't have it so bad!" or "Just cheer up!" Wanna get something off your chest about an issue you're having? "Oh it's not so bad." or "Others have it worse, y'know."

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not, but yup. "I like [thing], so therefore it's fine!" is such a trash argument in general when it comes to wanting something to improve that's panned by the majority. Yet I'm not glib enough to realize I'm putting in way too much effort/energy in to wanting more from something I enjoy, because it's not the only thing. It's just the out and out ignorance from the very developers about this is what's most insulting.

[Agner]

What is more fun?

Scribbling down math problems, making curse openers, knee jerking over parse numbers

Or

Pretend to be edgy AF, feeling cool swinging a 2h sword blasting out black magic, summon a clone of Ur self and nickname Ur clone to a funny name, and feel like your the dark overlord in the world of final fantasy

So any comments below this please vote what u considered FUN in the game.......if maths becomes the majority votes ....then rip FFXIV it will turn into wow where elites will "force" meta gaming and suffer the same fate

DRK will be fine in numbers, and I think most people know that. Despite how clueless they can seem, I don't think Square would change so little if they weren't very comfortable about the state of balance for this job. You'd get this if you read more of the thread.

As for the job itself, the job is just boring to play. It approaches that point faster than most other tanks for me now. I don't feel cool swinging a two-handed sword playing this job, and being edgy isn't keeping me with it anymore despite loving edge. The clone sucks, just blood weapon -> finish Souleater combo -> press it, congrats on your heavy hitting dot. Why is it even present on the gauge? Speaking of gauges, the darkside part of the gauge might as well not exist, because god actually help you if you have trouble maintaining darkside. The blood gauge isn't interesting at all, but I guess most gauges on tanks aren't interesting—though that's not really an excuse for them not to be.

I'm down for somewhat heavy oGCD usage and double weaving sometimes, but the way this job does it makes it look like I'm having a complex seizure on my enemy. It just feels like a sad amalgam of weird things that only sort of work at this point. Despite understanding flaws exist in other jobs, flaws on DRK feel twice or thrice as heavy. I want to love this job, especially after thinking it was a clunky pile of fun in 3.x and 4.x. It just feels like they gave up on giving it a direction other than "use souleater and love your oGCDs".

When they said they were going to build on the new base of this job, I thought they genuinely meant they'd do that by maybe giving us more importance to darkside/MP management, more activity with living shadow, or anything, instead of... shoving more double weaving in a job that already does plenty of that? Sure, I'm fine if they don't want to go back to Heavensward or to Stormblood with DRK, but it feels like they don't really care about putting much unique work into it at all. It somehow feels both bare bones in some areas and completely bloated in others. It's just overall too awkward, messy, and directionless.

Addition:

But just to humor you, let me say this: Trying to make things unique is how the devs ended up giving DRK Living Dead. Not everything has to be unique for the sake of it. Dark Missionary is so far away from needing any sort of uniqueness over function when three quarters of the DRK kit needs that attention far more. Besides, my initial post was about the function of the skill and correcting someone, not its flair which is irrelevant.

I'm personally completely indifferent about something like Dark Missionary, but Living Dead sure is a hilarious ability (in the most incorrect way possible). I can only hope Square gives us more inventive ways of allowing us to have fun instead of coming up with very inventive ways to punch us in the face like they did there.

[Shin96]

A larger reason I have issue with the "just play something else" is it's so dismissive of others. "Oh you're depressed? Get over it, you don't have it so bad!" or "Just cheer up!" Wanna get something off your chest about an issue you're having? "Oh it's not so bad." or "Others have it worse, y'know."

It is dismissive, but not just in large part to saying go play something else. We're pushing back against their satisfaction. Except it's grounded in stagnation, not advancements. They like what they have right now.

I don't know if you're agreeing with me or not, but yup. "I like [thing], so therefore it's fine!" is such a trash argument in general when it comes to wanting something to improve that's panned by the majority. Yet I'm not glib enough to realize I'm putting in way too much effort/energy in to wanting more from something I enjoy, because it's not the only thing. It's just the out and out ignorance from the very developers about this is what's most insulting.

I agree. In truth you won't get everything you want but that shouldn't stop people from asking for change. It's a natural process and often times innovations are possible by taking risks.
In my opinion, I think alot of these people don't main this job. "Well.. don't play it!" Easy for you to say. This job never mattered to you over 2 years, you haven't gotten most relics, you didn't play with it everyday. Being anything but a DRK main is the time of your life right now. Shadowbringers is what got me into these forums, just imagine how much you need to screw up for an introvert to be vocal and social about it. They truly messed up, in my opinion. Even more so with 6.0

[Ryaduera]

Because I'm running out of posts for the day and I still have multiple other topics I want to post in tonight is why, so I thought I'd save some with a simple edit.

But just to humor you, let me say this: Trying to make things unique is how the devs ended up giving DRK Living Dead. Not everything has to be unique for the sake of it. Dark Missionary is so far away from needing any sort of uniqueness over function when three quarters of the DRK kit needs that attention far more. Besides, my initial post was about the function of the skill and correcting someone, not its flair which is irrelevant.

I cannot be more clear here. I will say it again but use more emphasis. The problem is not Dark Missionary. The problem is the way the class uses it.

"Well the unique idea of Living Dead was a failure so everything unique square comes up with will also be a failure" is basically what you said. I guess they better stop coming out with new classes then. The Sage is a unique idea so I bet it will be bad because it's something original.

So how does Dark Missionary lose effectiveness on DRK? Easy. Anything that reduces damage taken devalues TBN because DRK wants TBN to break to get Darkside. If the shield does not break that is a DPS loss. So here's an idea. The DRK gets instead a party-wide mitigation tool that redirects 30% of the DRK's HP from the party, distributed equally among all affected party members, to the DRK. An AoE cover, but less effective. This is roughly 3.75% (30 divided by 7) of the DRK's max HP as a "shield" to the party. You're still reducing raid damage and if you put TBN on yourself for this, it synergizes well as it will probably break the shield. Adjust the cooldown accordingly. (Numbers also adjustable, I am not a balance expert)

Do you see what I mean now? Dark Missionary is less useful on DRK than it is on GNB. The likely reason the party mitigation skill doesn't reduce damage by more like the other tanks is because you still want to break TBN and anything that reduces damage taken takes away from that. Instead, it would be better if the abilities were coherent. Not even unique, but were valued to the same degree as the other tanks synergizing abilities. My very own idea isn't unique, it's just a worse AoE cover, but even though it's worse, it's better for the DRK because of how it would function with their other abilities. And you can run GNB + DRK and stack them and it's better than double stacking the same mitigation tool. Yeah, 1% fall off isn't much and 9% is still a lot, but now you've reduced raid damage and made the hp value of TBN increase as well. Stacking the same effect isn't bad, yes, but it doesn't work with the DRK kit as well as it works with the GNB kit. The problem is not the usefulness of the skill, the problem is the cohesion of the kit. One class uses it better than the other.

NOTE: This is not a good fix, but this would be better than what we have for DM... It would be better to make TBN not be a dps loss for not breaking it, but as the job stands right now, this would be better.