Controversioal Changes to Monk

[Garnix]

The problem with your idea here is that I'm pretty convinced that positionals are dead come 6.0. I don't want them to go, but the job's history suggests that they will.

Positionals have regularly been de-emphasized on the job with every expansion. We're where we are at right now because of SE's efforts to eliminate whatever pain points the community brings up, and for better or worse, positionals are regularly proposed to go the way of GL. As things stand, the job really does just have ONE meaningful positional, and given SE's own track record on doubling down with some honestly bad choices with the job for the past six years, I'm not exactly brimming with optimism for what comes next.

While I absolutely agree that positionals should be more meaningful, for Monk and for EVERY job that has them, players already complain about how hard they are to land under duress, and SE has shown that they would prefer to sacrifice meaningful moment-to-moment gameplay (even something as simple as moving a little to the left or right of an arbitrary, clearly marked part of a circle surrounding a mob) in order to try and appease people who don't even main ANY given role in the game.

Accessibility trumps everything in FFXIV, and people screech about being gatekept by basic gameplay mechanics all the time despite this. I know people who have dropped DRG entirely because they hated "being punished" for missing positionals. I know people who refuse to play BLM because dropping Enochian feels like "punishment." I've even heard people complain about NIN's bunny-no-jutsu and having their haste fall off. These are the people for whom SE made GL a trait, rather than something to manage.

"Locking" fancier animations AND greater potency behind properly landing positionals/putting some effort into your time with the game just seems to be asking for the same complaints here.

Positionals de-emphasized every expansion? Yet they added Raiden thrust in ShB.
They also added true north, and they improved the readability of the hitbox so that positionals get easier to reach.
I think they will de-emphasize positionals in one way in ShB : by not giving any to reaper.
So if you want to play a melee without positionals, play reaper.
But we will know soon.

[Sqwall]

They also added true north, and they improved the readability of the hitbox so that positionals get easier to reach.

Sorry but I saw the addition of arrows on the side of the target circle as a way making it a little clearer to see with way a boss was pointing. If it was a full circle like in Delebrum, it was a little difficult to know which way the boss was pointing as a MNKk, not say it was hard, just kind of lost a sense of direction. With the flank markers pointing to the bosses front it does make it easier.

Don't really need them when it's a normal target circle. The large missing section in the rear is...well the rear. My dps blinders would interpret a full circle differently, and would have to think little bit before moving a bosses side or rear.

Personally I feel the writing is on the wall for positionals. Delebrum didn't even use them....and I didn't miss them. And the mechanics in there are nothing short of brilliant. Reminded me of old WoW raids. And I still had fun in there on my MNK. Like I said in the past....I would trade positionals for better fight mechanics.

Examples:
E3 - The whole fight doesn't need positionals.
Diamond Weapon - 2/3 of the fight positionals don't matter.
Ruby Weapon - 1/2 the fight positionals don't matter (aside from ravens images)
Titania - a portion of the fight positionals don't matter (mustard seed, peace blossom)
Delebrum - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Dalriada - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Castrum -ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Zadnor - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Bozja - ALL the fights positionals aren't required

The more that I look at the positionals examples. The less I think they are all that important. But I have had way more fun playing MNK in ALL the bozja/zadnor content and is my go to job to take in there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think positionals are all that compelling for gameplay.

[Garnix]

For veterans the arrows on the side are clearly just to indicate the direction the boss is facing, yes. But for newcomers, I think they can be used as indication for the flanks to start with.

I don't think positionals are a super compelling gameplay element in general. But I think having one of the jobs rely heavily on them is kinda cool.

[Mikey_R]

Not counting the Bozja areas, most of the fights you listed, you can't even get to the enemies rear, so that have to be omni positional. As for the Bozja areas, the only reason they don't have positionals is in the case you have a melee tanking an enemy, don't want to lose that damage just because you were potentially forced into that role now (I've tanked DR as a Monk before with a random group, so it does happen). So really, it is more out of the content's design that the decision was made.

The only case is Ruby Weapon, where, in the second half, obviously no positionals, however I suspect that has to do with the fact the boss doesn't move has to do with the lack of positionals.

As for the arrows on the side of target circles, I am 99% sure the devs said it was so that poeple could more easily identify which way the boss was facing to aid in dodging cleaves etc. It also helps in avoiding mobs as you can now see which way that elemental is facing.

As for positionals in general, there is no reason they should go and the devs have shown no intention of doing so. With that said, there is no reason you couldn't have jobs that rely on positionals more than others. Monk is the high end, the rest are all lower and, depending on how he devs want to do it, with only Monk being highly positional dependant, the other 3 being less, I can see Reaper either being, no positionals to appease the poeple that hate them, or they could make it highly positional based as an alternative to Monk for people that like that playstyle. We should find out soon though.

However, there is still a balance that must be kept between being too reliant on positionals and them being meaningless. ARR Dragoon was too reliant on them, with Heavy Thrust not providing its buff if you miss the flank and Impulse Drive not comboiong into Disembowel if you miss the rear. Messing with your rotation in that regards is too far. However, something like Dragoon's Raiden Thrust is a good example of it done right (as someone mentioned earlier). As a random idea, they could bring back a gauge that fills as you hit positionals and above a certain threshold, they change your combo, similar to SB Machinist and heat. Have a dump skill to drain the gauge and have no penalty if you happen to max it. If you miss a positional, it could reduce the gauge to incentivice you to hit them and then Anatman could be a tool used in downtime to slowly fill the gauge, similar to Samurai's Meditate. That whole thing was pieced together as I was typing...really haven't though too much about it so criticise away.

With many many people that do enjoy positionals, it would be a shame to see them go, however, the job that relies on them should be the one that gets rewarded the most for it.

[Sqwall]

With many many people that do enjoy positionals, it would be a shame to see them go, however, the job that relies on them should be the one that gets rewarded the most for it.

I believe this whole heartedly. Playing MNK for as long I have has been a bumpy road, and has become less of a chore. And some minor tweaks would really make the job much more enjoyable to play. I would really like it if they changed the 1,2,3,4,5,6 rotation strictly for DOT, debuff, buff upkeep. Your Twin, Demolish and chackra gains all the while doing your positionals. Tough nut to crack too as I want a high reward for doing positionals, while not demanding the way it was for DRG of old.

And your Perfect Balance for your Burst Phase.

1. Reduce or remove the HEAVY reliance of Leaden Fist/Bootshine crit for the bulk of MNK's damage with 4,5,6 combo. But make Bootshine always crit with increased potency with perfect balance. I don't know what needs to be done precisely, but it's a fairly shallow gameplay aspect. Leaden Fist feels tacked on because the Dev's didn't know hot to fix MNK from being weak as most if not ALL skills granted after HW were for just GL upkeep, and when it came time to raid...monks didn't bring much to the table.

2. Perfect balance needs tweaked to have - positionals not required, and grants full potency as if meeting positional requirements. I would be happy if we kept the 1,2,3,4,5,6 combo rotation the same WITH positionals, but perfect balance just simply absorbed Riddle of Earth. (Riddle of Earth removed)

At least that's the nagging bits that I noticed. IMO

[Mikey_R]

Dragon Kick is in a weird spot. It worked in the past since Dragon Kick gave Blunt Resistance down, which has been removed. So now you are left with, what do you do with Dragon Kick. The whole gimmick was each stance had 2 options that you rotated between depending on whether you needed the buffs or not and I suspect that is partly to blame for the birth of Leaden Fist. They need a way to give you a reason to use Dragon Kick and make it appealing enough so that you do not just spam Bootshine.

Obviously, didn't work too well but what can be done? Do you want to add another damage buff? another DoT? Unless they can give it a good alternative, I think it will be staying. Honestly, as a job that relies on Crit, you could make it give a crit rate buff, maybe give it some extra damage to crits as well so that Bootshine still benefits from it. A high crit rate on a speedy job would work well as the crit RNG would balance out fairly consistently scross the fight and with most potencies being fairly similar, it wouldn't matter if you hit that one extra strong ability with a crit for not. Honestly, I think I just miss the enjoyment of seeing all those crits after using Internal release. Though, you could argue that they removed the crit increase off of Straight Shot and removed the reliance on crits for Bard, they did still keep it for Monk, so I do think maybe a job that relies on crits could work well.

[dezzmont]

This is actually a good point imo and I think that maybe we could get a big hitter that you build up to through landing positionals.
So you build up to it with positionals instead of crits.

Or just do it for Forbidden Chakra, it'd make it less RNG too.

One of the number one things I hear when a new player takes up monk among my friend group is "I don't feel like I am doing any damage" despite how Monk has pretty extreme potencies. One of the things I pitched to a friend who decided to quit the Monk class when they realized it was fun enough but just didn't 'feel good', that they ended up liking a lot, was just making every positional hit offer Chakra, and making every attack that lands on a target with the DOT while you have your buff up have a slightly better animation.

This would fix a lot of the 'feedback' problems with Monk, which are pretty severe, and actually give you something to work towards in your rotation, which was literally the only thing GL offered, even if it did so fairly poorly. That wouldn't fix all of Monk's problems (it probably needs like... an entirely new mechanic layered on top of what it has now that so much room has been cleared up in its abilities in terms of GL management), but it would certainly do a LOT to make the job better, because now that mental effort to hit those positional abilities and maintain uptime to keep both buffs up correctly rewards you with some flair. More mechanical stuff is needed (Monk definitely feels like a job missing an entire second set of mechanics, it feels very much like Blackmage pre-Enochian now) but I don't think the job will ever be fixed until there is something more visible than potency on the line for doing well with it.

Of course, as IruruCece said, there is a question of if positional abilities are something they want to emphasize, because much like GL they emphasize a lot about fight design and they were always sorta.... weird to have as part of Monk's identity. I can kiiiiiiiiinda see the connection to the idea of a martial artist flipping around, but if I were to name a melee DPS job that should actually care the LEAST about positionals on a thematic level, it would be the martial artist who's lore is literally that they are trained as head to head fighters. Between that and the fact that, ironically, Monk has the least impactful positional abilities (Just sitting behind a target only removes about 5% of your potency, which while not nothing doesn't matter compared to say... losing out on Kenki in terms of noticeability) I wouldn't hold my breath for that becoming Monk's identity.

Which is sort of the problem, a lot of the things Monk rests its hat on aren't actually that interesting or healthy as identities. Which is why I think they are going to get the MCH treatment of 'This is actually just an entirely new job now.'

[Sqwall]

Which is sort of the problem, a lot of the things Monk rests its hat on aren't actually that interesting or healthy as identities. Which is why I think they are going to get the MCH treatment of 'This is actually just an entirely new job now.'

It's good to see I'm not the only one. And I for one welcome it with open arms.

It's time. Hopefully SE see's that too. We can only hope

[dezzmont]

It's good to see I'm not the only one. And I for one welcome it with open arms.

It's time. Hopefully SE see's that too. We can only hope

While I think the MCH change was good for giving it some actual heat (heh) in terms of a thing to look forward to in the rotation (the old one just was stressful and annoying and didn't give enough OOMF to feel like a reward) overall I don't think the job is thaaat great. It is definitely a better framework for sure but it really needs some mechanical love. I think it is a great example of A: The job feeling good being more important than it being good mechanically, and B: That still not being enough, and both sides of it needing to actually work towards each other.

It is an infinite step up, don't get me wrong, because old MCH was really bad in many ways (a job, for example, being hardcore ping limited to the extent old MCH was should never ever EVER happen), but the ideal outcome here is something other than 'MCH rework but Monk.'

Really what they need to do is look at what is actually good about Monk (In my opinion, it is the way its combos sorta flow about, and how it feels good to attack really fast) and iterate on that, and remove the elements that aren't great or are causing issues. Monk definitely suffered from not being itterated on really as a job and just getting endless patches to GL in order to make it remotely functional in XIV's encounter design for essentially no reward of depth or complexity (Monk is not black mage and you can't design an ability around 'minimum times to not attack' on a job with free movement and no 'wind ups' that doesn't feel like an arbitrary punishment), which is part of why it is so barren and feels almost like a 2.0 job, while almost every other job actually got to refine and further purify what people actually like about them.

[IruruCece]

Positionals de-emphasized every expansion?

For monks? Absolutely. Potencies for positionals were basically poured into Bootshine, making it the only relevant one to the job for most players. True North used to allow for longer periods where you could ignore positionals, and combined with Riddle of Earth, there were definitely multiple fights that I could just ignore positional requirements for extended periods of time shortly after the first raid-wide went out.

E3 - The whole fight doesn't need positionals.
Diamond Weapon - 2/3 of the fight positionals don't matter.
Ruby Weapon - 1/2 the fight positionals don't matter (aside from ravens images)
Titania - a portion of the fight positionals don't matter (mustard seed, peace blossom)
Delebrum - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Dalriada - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Castrum -ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Zadnor - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Bozja - ALL the fights positionals aren't required

List all the fights where players need to consider them.

Honestly, everything in Bozja should be roundly ignored when it comes to encounter design or combat balance, just as most of Shadowbringers rightfully ignored Eureka. The combat in these areas is designed to be run by mostly uncoordinated and unbalanced groups, which has no bearing on actual endgame content and group compositions. They're casual zones for people like me to grind for relics that don't even matter to actual endgame raiders who are pushing content well before the last 6 months of an expansion.

The fights in them are also not particularly interesting, especially Delebrum, which is just "mess up twice and die" coupled with fights that mostly take too goddamn long even with raids that are bringing essences. Content designed to be run with groups of six Healers (none of whom are actually healing), 1 DPS, and a Tank, if you so desire it, shouldn't be held up as a gold standard for the rest of the game to follow, unless you want the rest of the game to fail.