Controversioal Changes to Monk

[Jirah]

Way to not read what I actually wrote because I literally said "I don't think the MCH change is that good" like 3 times in that post and don't think it was ultimately a great rework save for actually giving MCH highpoints.

The interesting thing to take away from MCH is that highpoints for your job, the gamefeel of it, is more important than its actual mechanical depth for success, but if you just add that the job feels totally hollow. Not that MCH is actually a good job right now, which is why I was literally responding to someone saying "I hope we get a MCH style rework" with "I actually kinda don't, but here is what MCH did that made it more popular despite being a kinda hollow job and why that matters looking at Monk and its future."

But language is imprecise and nuance is hard to convey over text, and threading the needle of 'Listen I get the job shouldn't be dumbed down but you realize its awful and the fact there are so many outsider complaints shows there are actual serious problems with the job, even if a lot of the things they specifically ask for don't make sense' is hard.

More disagreeing on the exaggeration on MCH being “really really bad” like it’s some doom job not helped by it literally being inaccessible and people just agreeing in unison and further explaining on MCH reduction being beneficial which I can’t say personally until we see how EW will expand or stagnate the job they sand blasted.

The rest is just speaking out loud more or less as I see the comparison far more often among other suggestions. I’d love to see more elaborate MNK “Reworks” again those are a joy to read

[ssunny2008]

So let´s face it. I´m pretty sure that MNK isn´t that unpopular as some ppl claim it. There is even a side from april 2020, where we can see that all starter classes are often played. (Not saying those stats are 100% correct.)
Given to ff.logs BRD / MCH / BLM and MNK are the least played classes. And of course they are. While MNK and BLM are special anyway, the SAM + DNC is just a wombo combo in the endgame and it definately makes the content easier to bring them, which already fills 1 melee spot and normally makes BRD / MCH unneccessary. That a bunch of statics go in with 2 caster instead of 2 melees is another thing. And here we´re only talking about some current endgame logs.

I personally see any class in any given content out of savage and yes, i do see MNK´s playing their positionals and doing well. We´re millions of players and how many ppl actually complain about a full positional class or positionals overall? 1%? Maybe 2%? Who knows.
But i´m pretty convinced that those players are highly casual, don´t play the real endgame, don´t main the class anyway and don´t even want to try to play it properly. That a punching job is attracting you guys, fine... but why do you even waste your time to complain instead of learning and becoming better in the game?
The most content in FF14 is low tier as well and you can ignore positionals anyway. So why even complain about them, when you don´t want to ride savage / ultimate as MNK?!



And imagine, that the most guys just play the game and enjoy it instead of creating memes about any jobs, sitting in discord and chilling in limsa or whatever. And well, i´ve never seen any MNK main coming up like "positionals are bad". Not even any serious other melee main, because they bring atleast a bit variation to the 123 combo and even define the gap between good / bad players. (Which is a needed personal reward in any game, otherwise the feeling of "becoming better" would be not existent.)

@dezzmont
I can agree that a theme and aesthetics are a big thing in any game. But it´s still not as important as the gameplay is. A lot of games out there shows that. Anthem is a perfect example where the content, gameplay and rewards failed, but it´s a graphical masterpiece in all way. Only that flying aspect was awesome when we talk about gameplay there.
On the other hand we´ve a bunch of old games which are still played and loved. Yeah, some kind of nostalgic might be in there, but no real gamer cares about a bunch of pixels or lack of graphical bombardements when the gameplay is fun, character variations a thing or whatever.
What if MNK gets a better graphical feedback, but stays like it is? Would you play it? Would you enjoy it? Or are positionals still an issue for the most?


So please, whoever of you "pls change class X for whatever reasons guys" read this, stop complain about personal issues. A development issue like GL + cutszene, completely broken classes or content which can´t be done with class Y is something different than changing core aspects of classes, because you just don´t want to play it like that.
This isn´t just another FF series game too. It´s a MMORPG. We´ve already lost so many RPG aspects over the years and all what such complaints do, is to kill the last unique features in any class you complain about. We´ve seen this with too many classes already, just because 1 button clicks for high end DPS seems to be so exciting.

And seriously... maybe just accept that you guys aren´t those brilliant gamers instead of complaining about anything, if that´s the case. Asking to evolve classes is one thing, but getting ride of years old basic mechanics to cater ingorance, lazyness or just bad plays? Common... pretty sure the most players would´ve even more fun in the game, if they would read their skills and get used to the classes instead of random button smashing. Not any class is hard to learn and only savage content force some mechanic adaptive gameplay. Just go to a dummy and practice.
I´ve seen more than enough trash players practicing, evolving and enjoying the game far more and such permanent complaints like "bs gameplay, unfair content, whatever" stopped immediately. One of them is even my better half. We all started once and not every class is made for everyone anyway.

[Jirah]

Snip

If u can juggle some words around, id agree with this statement partially. As of 5.56 and most likely 6.0 mastering the job is not required nothing in the game will eat u alive if u havent learned your job unless, to the point even healers can relax abit and tanks dont have nearly as much responsibility as the used to.

Having said this , i Cannot STAND the trend of praying upon jobs that have "complex kits" and wishing for them to be easier rather than idk...practicing. I sucked as MNK and did unsynced content to try to learn and master it and i did (still have issues keeping twins up from fight to fight but ive learned the job) same with SAM as postionals and melee were new to me as i was seeking a new job after MCH got its lobotomy. Same with learning astos cards and its effects like spread and hold. and with MCH in SB when my dps was horrid in Deltascape and learned i was doing my rotation wrong, forgetting ammo, and ogcds, letting wildfire rot, not using FT or Hotshot ect. Point is the learning process is awesome.

BRD , SMN, MNK, and i see a few Sam reduction requests too, disgust me. You should never want a job to be reduced because its too hard. Job issues should be if they are horribly OP, or underpowered. or the kit is; unintuitive, incomplete , isnt functional or isnt fun. If they do apply by all means vent ur concerns, but its usually just "remove dots, remove egi, remove postionals, Tsubame-gaeshi ruined sam, and remove the dot no one uses it anyways"

Not saying MNK is perfect, it has issues but its postionals isnt the biggest concern

[dezzmont]

What if MNK gets a better graphical feedback, but stays like it is? Would you play it? Or are positionals still an issue for the most?

I would not play monk with an update alone, but not because of positional abilities. Positionals as a pain point for monk are a biiiiit of a false problem. They aren't really that important and when they are you have True North.

The overall issue with Monk is that too many of its elements were punishing. Not CHALLENGING. Punishing, the job is all stick, no carrot. The job needs 'mechanical moneyshots' that makes its internal structure more obvious and execution more rewarding. DPS is not a reward, the game actively hides it (and thus the number one complaint I hear about monk is "I don't know if I am even doing damage...").

The obvious point of comparison is Samurai, because of how similar the jobs are: Melee job that hits positionals over a somewhat non-standard combo weaving oGCDs in for extra damage or self buffs that actually change what you are trying to do.

But Samurai gets a lot more love, and is is easier to be a good SAM. Not because its vastly simpler (they don't compare directly very for many reasons, mainly being 'more effects that alter core rotation vs a more fluid core rotation), but because the job has good built in rewards into its rotation that make it REALLY clear what you are trying to accomplish.

Unlike most newbie monks, most newbie Samurai actually learn to hit their positional because Kenki forces you to do it to cast your abilities, and most samurai learn to do their rotation correctly because you get your Iaijutsu doing it. Lacking these feedback elements doesn't make Monk a 'harder class' and adding them wouldn't make it 'more casual.

This isn't to say "Monk should become Sam 2.0" as much as "You can look at other jobs, see common threads among popular ones, and look and see if they can be added to jobs that are struggling or people are bouncing off of." A Chakra on positional hits while your buff and debuff are up would both make Monk 'harder' (If you miss any one of those 3 you lose more DPS), but also easier (its now WAY easier to 'see' when you mess up on monk, just like when you over-write an Iaijutsu seal on SAM), and more engaging for newer players ("If I do these things I get this really cool attack I actively want to use!"). That still is fairly different than Sam but incorporates its design strengths of using the meter mechanic as a feedback tool.

TL;DR: Monk really doesn't need further difficulty reduction. It needs things in its rotation that say 'Good job, you did your rotation' and gives you something for it. Positionals are fine (if probably annoying to the encounter designers), and in fact probably need to be emphasized more, ironically, to help make them easier.

[IruruCece]

The overall issue with Monk is that too many of its elements were punishing. Not CHALLENGING. Punishing, the job is all stick, no carrot.

No.

The math has repeatedly showed that missing all positionals EXCEPT for Bootshine resulted in a negligible DPS loss. So, ignoring the vast majority of your positionals wasn't punishing for the vast majority of players. And with True North and Riddle of Earth, especially earlier in Shadowbringers' patch cycle, you could completely ignore ALL positionals without ANY penalty whatsoever for a shocking amount of time.

If, for whatever reason, you're missing BOOTSHINE's positional requirement, especially on current patch Monk, the problem here is decidedly not with the existence of positionals.

Chakra RNG has been a problem for the job since 2.0, and that still didn't stop Monk from being one of the top DPS jobs in Shadowbringers. It parses extremely well, arguably it has since late Heavensward. So having bad chakra rng is hardly a punishment, the best Monk players in endgame content today still outperform most other DPS jobs despite that factor being outside their control.

GL loss was the closest thing to "punishment" the job threw at players, and to be frank, if you were dropping GL at any point before a cutscene completely robbed control of the encounter away from you, you were either dead, or actually bad at the job. Straight up. GL maintenance was made practically braindead, to the point where if you were willing to keep tapping a button, you could preserve the buff through entire dungeons, to say nothing about proper raids. We had a STUPID amount of our kit dedicated to preserving that buff in just about any circumstance so long as we had active control of our characters. The problem with GL was that SE has regularly sought to place spectacle before everything else, and never considered that aspect one bit when "fixing" Monk for Shadowbringers.

We should have gotten something that rewarded aggressive Monks for maintaining GL over a set period of time, even if that something was as simple as "press this, get max GL again and do some ogcd damage." Instead, we got Anatman, which SE's own encounter design actively made worthless, and when we tried to squeeze blood from that worthless stone, they nerfed it in response. If there was anything "punishing" about Monk, it was SE's insistence that we shouldn't be allowed to quickly "build up" to full speed, and that we had to "build up" to full speed after every bloody mid-fight cutscene they hamhandedly inserted into the game. There were better solutions, and they failed to try a single one of them.

[dezzmont]

The math has repeatedly showed that missing all positionals EXCEPT for Bootshine resulted in a negligible DPS loss. So, ignoring the vast majority of your positionals wasn't punishing for the vast majority of players.

I agree that positional on monk essentially don't matter and are weirdly less emphasized than other melee outside of Bootshine.

Positionals actually add to the job, its just the way they are implemented is real darn bad and they should feel 'better' to hit. Again, accessibility of a job and it being easy are not the same thing, part of why monk is so inaccessable is so many of its mechanics are 'hidden' or obfuscated and it 'demanding' something more visibly and offering a reward more visibly would actually probably help it a lot.

GL loss was the closest thing to "punishment" the job threw at players, and to be frank, if you were dropping GL at any point before a cutscene completely robbed control of the encounter away from you, you were either dead, or actually bad at the job.

It's sorta inarguable that GL was a punishment mechanic, sorta like dropping Enochian, but it lacks any of the charms of Enochian and you can instantly get Enochian back if you did it for long enough or if you died. GL's affect on death is REALLY bad, and that is a common occurance among new players in new content, and that definitely should matter in a job design.

Like imagine if Bard couldn't cast its dots for a full 45 seconds after doing its dots, so if you died or let them drop at any time you suddenly just weren't able to play Bard. It doesn't matter that this shouldn't happen unless your making mistakes on Bard, it is just way too punishing and doesn't actually make Bard better. If a skilled player barely notices a mechanic and an unskilled one is just finding it frustrating, it isn't a good mechanic, and keeping it in just so that it is harder to learn Monk isn't good design. It isn't 'dumbing a job down' to reduce dead weight like GL (at least in the form it was in, later on you have a really interesting idea of what to do with it I like!).

Chakra RNG has been a problem for the job since 2.0

I didn't mention Chakra RNG because I don't think it is really a 'punishment' so much as a bad design for the job, but fixing Charka RNG would be nice. Its something I have heard monks complain about forever and its so weird that their 50 capstone is so lackluster.

We should have gotten something that rewarded aggressive Monks for maintaining GL over a set period of time, even if that something was as simple as "press this, get max GL again and do some ogcd damage."

That would be a good mechanic that makes GL actually have a positive purpose for the job rather than kicking players while they are down, yes. That is baaasiiically how Enochian works: You can force reset it after dying (or if you hold it for long but make a mistake) even though you technically can upkeep it forever, and holding rewards you with a big attack. Still rewards agro monks, but makes the act of dying way less feels bad for newer players learning the job.

Enochian is basically 'not bad GL' so making GL more like Enochian does make a lot of sense. I think this would have been enough to 'save' GL. That said, I suspect this would make a lot of Monks unhappy because it basically makes recovering GL trivial so I didn't personally suggest 'make GL more like Enochian.'

[IruruCece]

It's sorta inarguable that GL was a punishment mechanic

Hard disagree, again. GL wasn't a punishment mechanic in the least. It was incredibly easy to maintain even under duress, to the point where even some loser like me could do it more often than not, and by my own standards that means it's accessible as heck. Honestly, cutscenes that robbed control from the players were more of a punishment mechanic than GL ever was, and ever those don't count as punishment. They're flaws in a game filled with flaws. Just like how SE's insistence that dropping GL at all, for any reason, whether it was your fault or the fault of being forced to watch an underaged naked girl get cuddly with a dragon for the umpteenth time while trying to prog a hard fight, meant that you had to start from scratch EVERY TIME. The "punishment" side of things has nothing to do with the idea of GL, if you want to insist it was a punishment of some sort, and more to do with the fact that SE doubled down on bad design decisions at every possible crossroad they could have zagged instead of constantly zigging.

Realistically, even taking new player difficulties into account with new content doesn't make GL a punishment mechanic either. Everyone dies on hard stuff the first (few dozen) times they run it. That would be like me, a TERRIBLE black mage, claiming that cast times are a punishment mechanic, or that dropping Enochian before I can maintain it long enough for my big special button is a punishment mechanic. That would be like me, a TERRIBLE and VERY INEXPERIENCED summoner, claiming that losing my trance before I could get off my big attacks is a punishment mechanic.

I disagree with calling the result of failing to accomplish something a "punishment mechanic", especially in the case of GL, and especially for new players, because everyone is new at some point. You have to practice to get better at something. Dropping GL isn't because the devs were necessarily being mean to the player, you either died or failed to maintain your combos. Both of those are on YOU the individual, and with practice you learn to get around those things.

What IS punishment, if you can call it that, is losing the self-buff because of things that are 100 percent outside of your control, or having to start over from scratch every time... and even then I'd still not call it punishment.

The solutions to GL loss, to Tornado Kick being worthless, to our Chakra generation, have literally been proposed for years by players who are FAR more experienced and hardcore than I ever was, am, or will be, and SE actively refused to take any feedback about the job seriously until player numbers for it dropped off the cliff. I'm not even the first person to say "make GL like Enochian is now", I stole that from someone better at the game and if I remembered who said it first I'd absolutely credit them. That players can sit down for maybe five minutes and think about the very game they are playing and come up with something more engaging than turning GL into a TRAIT really shows how little care has gone into the job at this point. I think some cynicism about things at this point is warranted, lol.

[ssunny2008]

I would not play monk with an update alone, but not because of positional abilities. Positionals as a pain point for monk are a biiiiit of a false problem. They aren't really that important and when they are you have True North.

They´re important to do a decent damage. But yeah, they´re not important, because the given content doesn´t force anything you need to take care about. So why does ppl even want to get ride of them? Don´t play them, don´t claim to be a gamer and stay on a noobish level.

The overall issue with Monk is that too many of its elements were punishing.

MNK, especially the SHB MNK pre 5.3 has never been punishing. You had more than enough tools to maintain GL. Devs just want us to watch the same dumb cutszene over and over again. This is a design-flaw since castrum. No matter how short they´ve become.

But if we go that way... you failed, died to an aoe and got punished with a death or damage down. Should we get ride of it, because it´s too punishing?
A player wouldn´t get punished if he wouldn´t fail. It´s stuff you meet everywhere in RL too. If anything, classes NEED MORE PUNISHMENTS for bad plays, so players wouldn´t just play 123. I do play a lot with different groups and even casuals. None of them do even think about given circumstances. They run down what the guide has told. They´re not able to use their brain to react on other missplays, random design encounters or whatever. That´s just sad in my eyes.
Once i´ve even told the wrong safespot on purpose early in emerald weapon. Yes on purpose to troll my old static... and guess what? Everyone just ran in there and died poorly. So much about ppl watching and using their brain.

The obvious point of comparison is Samurai, because of how similar the jobs are

Yes any job is simple, but why does ppl still complain about everything? So many jobs got dumb´d down already. Have you ever played OT these days? You would´ve time to eat a pizza, meanwhile j...... on an incoming cutszene, etc. Playing MT isn´t better, it´s just boring af. With positionals left, you´ve atleast something to do, something to care about in this braindead game.

And to compare any class with SAM is still a joke. SAM is broken af. Ok, we could say the same to BLM, but BLM is it because of the movement friendly content, not like SAM who carries the player with way too high potencies. The most do even ignore positionals, because the damage increase is not relevant for them.
Any other classes have a way lower DPS and / or rely on the party. MNK´s brotherhood is the perfect example. You need really good players to make the most use of it and to get as much proccs as possible to increase your own DPS. But hey, even then SAM will still out-DPS you without and raid-related effects. Same if 3 players are dead, they won´t get the brotherhood buff or do less damage with the deathmark. SAM? Who cares, pew pew!!!

SAM is broken for a long time now. You don´t have to be a brilliant positional and "I care about Kenki" player to beat others in DPS. You just need to do your 3 combos and spam Midare to compete with others. That´s the whole reason, why SAM is often played.

SAM needs a nerf, that´s the truth and what devs missed way too long.

(Btw that´s the reason, why i dropped SAM. I don´t want to be carried by a broken class. I want to achieve anything by myself.)

TL;DR: Monk really doesn't need further difficulty reduction. It needs things in its rotation that say 'Good job, you did your rotation' and gives you something for it. Positionals are fine (if probably annoying to the encounter designers), and in fact probably need to be emphasized more, ironically, to help make them easier.

I can agree with the 1st part, but not the 2nd. Classes overall needs to become stronger, but harder to play with a good feedback / reward. But positionals shouldn´t become easier. They´re already too easy. If anyone can´t play them properly, then he never really played melee or practiced the job.

[Garnix]

snip

I mostly agree. Except with your take on SAM.
I think SAM is fine. Maybe a tiny little bit too strong, but not by a lot. And it has enough optimization potential to be enjoyable for skilled players.
SAM is certainly one of the easiest jobs to pick up, but I think the main reason it is played the most is because it is a Samurai, which is an aesthetic that many players like.
It's pretty much the same reason you see so many people getting excited for reaper (and a lot of players playing DRK too). They don't care how it plays or feel like, it just looks edgy so they want to play it.
Numbers do not matter as much as some people think, unless you are trying to speedrun things. I mean, seeing some huge direct crit midare is certainly a great feeling, but it is really not the reason why so many casual players play SAM.

[ssunny2008]

Numbers do not matter as much as some people think, unless you are trying to speedrun things. I mean, seeing some huge direct crit midare is certainly a great feeling, but it is really not the reason why so many casual players play SAM.

I personally see everything pretty often in any standard content, even MNK. The least i´m seeing is indeed BLM and DNC the most. The reasons are obvious.
My concern in kind of SAM goes into the direction of harder content and why it´s so popular there. The overall design of having "raid related DPS classes" is questionable anyway. Here we just see the clear pro of being a SAM and why it´s too powerful and makes the endgame easier to beat. That´s why it should get a little nerf.