Controversioal Changes to Monk

[dezzmont]

The complaints about Bootshine are sorta the exact point I am making. Thematics and mechanics are often actually pretty clearly linked and pretending they are some opposing, or non-complementary elements, is very silly, when in reality thematics exist to heighten appeal and sell you on what is happening mechanically, and make it actually something the average person will care about. This is something any game designer worth their salt cares about a lot: If your themematic elements, sound design, visual design, and mechanics aren't working all towards the same goal, you screwed up. You don't 'sacrifice mechanics to do good thematics.' None are 'lower priority' than the other, because they are all part of the same package that creates a game's "Gamefeel."

Heck, there are games that experiment with deliberately screwing this up to make the experience unpleasant or offputting. Cruelty Squad immediately comes to mind, and its weapons actively feel... upsetting to use due to their animations and sounds not really matching how they 'should.'

Bootshine spam is a perfect example because it is both a mechanical and almost the same thing mechanically as just spamming Fell Cleave, but with some extra wiggling on the flank, two buttons, and some weaving sometimes. It isn't exactly the same, but its mechanical function is pretty much the same. You hit a button to activate a mode that lets you spam your best attack for a bit. Burst Phase ability, very common among the jobs. Why is Fell Cleave loved and Bootshine Spam bad? Because its on an ability that doesn't feel good to spam, because its already part of your rotation and its animation is... not designed to be a capstone ability.

If PB instead let monks suddenly smash a totally seperate ability that was... IDK... a Kenshiro style infinite punch smackdown where every attack came with a little mini explosion, ending with a bigger one... would the job be functionally different? No. Would it be better and more popular and feel at least somewhat better? We can ask Automation Queen on that one: Yes! Even though the MCH rework is kinda not great at the very least playing MCH doesn't feel totally limp.

Don't get me wrong at all: you don't need to make a job literally everyone will like playing at high level, or ignore the mechanical crunch and sweep it under the rug with good visual and sound design, and making the rotation have a 'big meme button to release the dopamine' (I think MCH being kinda 'meh' is what happens when you just focus on making sure a job has a ton of "Release Dopamine" buttons, and hopefully whatever comes for Monk is going to be mechanically interesting). But you definitely need some of that "Final Fantasy Polish" where your going through your rotation sweating as you approach THAT MOMENT of it, the REASON you are playing that job.

[Garnix]

Not a main MNK, but....
IMO if there is one issue with MNK positional, it is the fact that they just offer potency bonus.
You see DRG's Raiden Thrust? This is a positional bonus done right IMO. The type of thing MNK needs. It doesn't change your gameplay, but it is more visual and significant than a potency change.
Like, instead of True Strike being 30potency stronger from the rear, make it so that if you punch the rear, your next weapon skill is upgraded. And make those upgraded skills 30 potency higher and look badass. For example, make Tifa's dolphin uppercut part of it.

I just think upgrading the ARR combo to something beautiful would be nice, even if it's just visual effects.

Looking at Tifa in FF7R, this is exactly what MNK should be like IMO: fast attacks, moving a lot. XIV obviously tries to replicate that without being an action game. If you take the positional away, MNK becomes a very static job. And all I want is my MNK to be a bit like Tifa (but not as good looking of course).

Other changes that could be good : Chakra should cap at 10 to avoid overcapping.
Some skills still need to be adjusted: All 3 fists, 6-sided, probably anatman too. But truth be told, I don't really care nor do I know what they could/should do with those.
And, if the other melees keep their ranged attack, add Chi Blast, even if you should never use it.

[Kolsykol]

Not a main MNK, but....
IMO if there is one issue with MNK positional, it is the fact that they just offer potency bonus.
You see DRG's Raiden Thrust? This is a positional bonus done right IMO. The type of thing MNK needs. It doesn't change your gameplay, but it is more visual and significant than a potency change.
Like, instead of True Strike being 30potency stronger from the rear, make it so that if you punch the rear, your next weapon skill is upgraded. And make those upgraded skills 30 potency higher and look badass. For example, make Tifa's dolphin uppercut part of it.

I just think upgrading the ARR combo to something beautiful would be nice, even if it's just visual effects.

Looking at Tifa in FF7R, this is exactly what MNK should be like IMO: fast attacks, moving a lot. XIV obviously tries to replicate that without being an action game. If you take the positional away, MNK becomes a very static job. And all I want is my MNK to be a bit like Tifa (but not as good looking of course).

Other changes that could be good : Chakra should cap at 10 to avoid overcapping.
Some skills still need to be adjusted: All 3 fists, 6-sided, probably anatman too. But truth be told, I don't really care nor do I know what they could/should do with those.
And, if the other melees keep their ranged attack, add Chi Blast, even if you should never use it.

This is actually a good point imo and I think that maybe we could get a big hitter that you build up to through landing positionals.
So you build up to it with positionals instead of crits.

Or just do it for Forbidden Chakra, it'd make it less RNG too.

[IruruCece]

Not a main MNK, but....
IMO if there is one issue with MNK positional, it is the fact that they just offer potency bonus.
You see DRG's Raiden Thrust? This is a positional bonus done right IMO. The type of thing MNK needs. It doesn't change your gameplay, but it is more visual and significant than a potency change.

Like, instead of True Strike being 30potency stronger from the rear, make it so that if you punch the rear, your next weapon skill is upgraded. And make those upgraded skills 30 potency higher and look badass. For example, make Tifa's dolphin uppercut part of it.

This is actually a good point imo and I think that maybe we could get a big hitter that you build up to through landing positionals.
So you build up to it with positionals instead of crits.

Or just do it for Forbidden Chakra, it'd make it less RNG too.

The problem with your idea here is that I'm pretty convinced that positionals are dead come 6.0. I don't want them to go, but the job's history suggests that they will.

Positionals have regularly been de-emphasized on the job with every expansion. We're where we are at right now because of SE's efforts to eliminate whatever pain points the community brings up, and for better or worse, positionals are regularly proposed to go the way of GL. As things stand, the job really does just have ONE meaningful positional, and given SE's own track record on doubling down with some honestly bad choices with the job for the past six years, I'm not exactly brimming with optimism for what comes next.

While I absolutely agree that positionals should be more meaningful, for Monk and for EVERY job that has them, players already complain about how hard they are to land under duress, and SE has shown that they would prefer to sacrifice meaningful moment-to-moment gameplay (even something as simple as moving a little to the left or right of an arbitrary, clearly marked part of a circle surrounding a mob) in order to try and appease people who don't even main ANY given role in the game.

Accessibility trumps everything in FFXIV, and people screech about being gatekept by basic gameplay mechanics all the time despite this. I know people who have dropped DRG entirely because they hated "being punished" for missing positionals. I know people who refuse to play BLM because dropping Enochian feels like "punishment." I've even heard people complain about NIN's bunny-no-jutsu and having their haste fall off. These are the people for whom SE made GL a trait, rather than something to manage.

"Locking" fancier animations AND greater potency behind properly landing positionals/putting some effort into your time with the game just seems to be asking for the same complaints here.

[Sqwall]

If the Devs wanted to they could easily implemented something like Tifa style gameplay from FF7:R. That to me was literally what monk should be at this point in the long history of FF14.

I quit playing as Cloud and just went all in with Tifa because it REALLY reminded me of Monk from FF14. How fluid Tifa was in getting in combat, keeping your buffs up for max damage, and the incredible satisfaction of finishers.

LoL It felt like I was playing Killer Instinct

[Garnix]

The problem with your idea here is that I'm pretty convinced that positionals are dead come 6.0. I don't want them to go, but the job's history suggests that they will.

Positionals have regularly been de-emphasized on the job with every expansion. We're where we are at right now because of SE's efforts to eliminate whatever pain points the community brings up, and for better or worse, positionals are regularly proposed to go the way of GL. As things stand, the job really does just have ONE meaningful positional, and given SE's own track record on doubling down with some honestly bad choices with the job for the past six years, I'm not exactly brimming with optimism for what comes next.

While I absolutely agree that positionals should be more meaningful, for Monk and for EVERY job that has them, players already complain about how hard they are to land under duress, and SE has shown that they would prefer to sacrifice meaningful moment-to-moment gameplay (even something as simple as moving a little to the left or right of an arbitrary, clearly marked part of a circle surrounding a mob) in order to try and appease people who don't even main ANY given role in the game.

Accessibility trumps everything in FFXIV, and people screech about being gatekept by basic gameplay mechanics all the time despite this. I know people who have dropped DRG entirely because they hated "being punished" for missing positionals. I know people who refuse to play BLM because dropping Enochian feels like "punishment." I've even heard people complain about NIN's bunny-no-jutsu and having their haste fall off. These are the people for whom SE made GL a trait, rather than something to manage.

"Locking" fancier animations AND greater potency behind properly landing positionals/putting some effort into your time with the game just seems to be asking for the same complaints here.

Positionals de-emphasized every expansion? Yet they added Raiden thrust in ShB.
They also added true north, and they improved the readability of the hitbox so that positionals get easier to reach.
I think they will de-emphasize positionals in one way in ShB : by not giving any to reaper.
So if you want to play a melee without positionals, play reaper.
But we will know soon.

[Sqwall]

They also added true north, and they improved the readability of the hitbox so that positionals get easier to reach.

Sorry but I saw the addition of arrows on the side of the target circle as a way making it a little clearer to see with way a boss was pointing. If it was a full circle like in Delebrum, it was a little difficult to know which way the boss was pointing as a MNKk, not say it was hard, just kind of lost a sense of direction. With the flank markers pointing to the bosses front it does make it easier.

Don't really need them when it's a normal target circle. The large missing section in the rear is...well the rear. My dps blinders would interpret a full circle differently, and would have to think little bit before moving a bosses side or rear.

Personally I feel the writing is on the wall for positionals. Delebrum didn't even use them....and I didn't miss them. And the mechanics in there are nothing short of brilliant. Reminded me of old WoW raids. And I still had fun in there on my MNK. Like I said in the past....I would trade positionals for better fight mechanics.

Examples:
E3 - The whole fight doesn't need positionals.
Diamond Weapon - 2/3 of the fight positionals don't matter.
Ruby Weapon - 1/2 the fight positionals don't matter (aside from ravens images)
Titania - a portion of the fight positionals don't matter (mustard seed, peace blossom)
Delebrum - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Dalriada - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Castrum -ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Zadnor - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Bozja - ALL the fights positionals aren't required

The more that I look at the positionals examples. The less I think they are all that important. But I have had way more fun playing MNK in ALL the bozja/zadnor content and is my go to job to take in there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think positionals are all that compelling for gameplay.

[IruruCece]

Positionals de-emphasized every expansion?

For monks? Absolutely. Potencies for positionals were basically poured into Bootshine, making it the only relevant one to the job for most players. True North used to allow for longer periods where you could ignore positionals, and combined with Riddle of Earth, there were definitely multiple fights that I could just ignore positional requirements for extended periods of time shortly after the first raid-wide went out.

E3 - The whole fight doesn't need positionals.
Diamond Weapon - 2/3 of the fight positionals don't matter.
Ruby Weapon - 1/2 the fight positionals don't matter (aside from ravens images)
Titania - a portion of the fight positionals don't matter (mustard seed, peace blossom)
Delebrum - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Dalriada - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Castrum -ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Zadnor - ALL the fights positionals aren't required
Bozja - ALL the fights positionals aren't required

List all the fights where players need to consider them.

Honestly, everything in Bozja should be roundly ignored when it comes to encounter design or combat balance, just as most of Shadowbringers rightfully ignored Eureka. The combat in these areas is designed to be run by mostly uncoordinated and unbalanced groups, which has no bearing on actual endgame content and group compositions. They're casual zones for people like me to grind for relics that don't even matter to actual endgame raiders who are pushing content well before the last 6 months of an expansion.

The fights in them are also not particularly interesting, especially Delebrum, which is just "mess up twice and die" coupled with fights that mostly take too goddamn long even with raids that are bringing essences. Content designed to be run with groups of six Healers (none of whom are actually healing), 1 DPS, and a Tank, if you so desire it, shouldn't be held up as a gold standard for the rest of the game to follow, unless you want the rest of the game to fail.

[dezzmont]

This is actually a good point imo and I think that maybe we could get a big hitter that you build up to through landing positionals.
So you build up to it with positionals instead of crits.

Or just do it for Forbidden Chakra, it'd make it less RNG too.

One of the number one things I hear when a new player takes up monk among my friend group is "I don't feel like I am doing any damage" despite how Monk has pretty extreme potencies. One of the things I pitched to a friend who decided to quit the Monk class when they realized it was fun enough but just didn't 'feel good', that they ended up liking a lot, was just making every positional hit offer Chakra, and making every attack that lands on a target with the DOT while you have your buff up have a slightly better animation.

This would fix a lot of the 'feedback' problems with Monk, which are pretty severe, and actually give you something to work towards in your rotation, which was literally the only thing GL offered, even if it did so fairly poorly. That wouldn't fix all of Monk's problems (it probably needs like... an entirely new mechanic layered on top of what it has now that so much room has been cleared up in its abilities in terms of GL management), but it would certainly do a LOT to make the job better, because now that mental effort to hit those positional abilities and maintain uptime to keep both buffs up correctly rewards you with some flair. More mechanical stuff is needed (Monk definitely feels like a job missing an entire second set of mechanics, it feels very much like Blackmage pre-Enochian now) but I don't think the job will ever be fixed until there is something more visible than potency on the line for doing well with it.

Of course, as IruruCece said, there is a question of if positional abilities are something they want to emphasize, because much like GL they emphasize a lot about fight design and they were always sorta.... weird to have as part of Monk's identity. I can kiiiiiiiiinda see the connection to the idea of a martial artist flipping around, but if I were to name a melee DPS job that should actually care the LEAST about positionals on a thematic level, it would be the martial artist who's lore is literally that they are trained as head to head fighters. Between that and the fact that, ironically, Monk has the least impactful positional abilities (Just sitting behind a target only removes about 5% of your potency, which while not nothing doesn't matter compared to say... losing out on Kenki in terms of noticeability) I wouldn't hold my breath for that becoming Monk's identity.

Which is sort of the problem, a lot of the things Monk rests its hat on aren't actually that interesting or healthy as identities. Which is why I think they are going to get the MCH treatment of 'This is actually just an entirely new job now.'

[Sqwall]

Which is sort of the problem, a lot of the things Monk rests its hat on aren't actually that interesting or healthy as identities. Which is why I think they are going to get the MCH treatment of 'This is actually just an entirely new job now.'

It's good to see I'm not the only one. And I for one welcome it with open arms.

It's time. Hopefully SE see's that too. We can only hope