Please Remove Role Skills and Give Them Back as Class/Job Abilities

[Jirah]

Some should be removed and be its own unique skills...some. Surecast, SwiftCast, Addle should stay in Magical. Surecast Swiftcast Repose should stay in Healer. Shirk ,LowBlow, Arms length and Provoke could stay in tanks (give all tanks a general defense CD to replace rampart) Second wind, Arms length and Peloton, and Head Graze should stay in ranged (Bind and Slow are the most useless skills in the game and should just stay in PVP) and Second wind, True north, and Leg sweep should stay with Melee (Fient and bloodbath being debatable)

[Lauront]

Definitely something I'd support!

[MartaDemireux]

Here's hoping this is happening and these are two new versions of Rampart!

[Shurrikhan]

I'd support this regardless, but it's worth noting that some of the Role Actions, especially in their current iterations, are pure bloat:

Shirk

Shirk's tank-swap QoL would be better done by changes to Provoke itself. As for a mere hit-on-refresh maintenance function... such adds to annoyance without adding fundamentally anything to agency. Buff Provoke's functionality and get rid of Shirk.

Lucid Dreaming

It's a mere hit-on-refresh maintenance function. Get rid of it.

(Perhaps even) Arm's Length

So we spend time to make these knockback mechanics, which rarely ever go off more often that AL's CD, and the bloat our bars with an ability to just undo the mechanic we just spent time designing, replacing the more nuanced interactions available through pre-positioning, banked mobility, stutter-casting, and native toolkit usage, etc.... Why? Get rid of it. Bake the mitigation difference into the tank's kits, and the toolkits that already have measures by which to counter a knockback to be less vulnerable to latency in that countering interaction.

Similarly, not all of the remaining former Role Skills need to be given to every job, especially so long as other skills that are similarly, at present, just reskins and renames of the exact same skill (e.g., Raise, Ascendance, Resurrection) are themselves adjusted.

Consider, for instance, a WHM without Swiftcast who still has that level of snap-casting capacity in their own way.

Perhaps they have a trait called... Water's Wake, whereby each healing spell cast causes the next to be completable even if interrupted by movement or damage taken up to .5 seconds earlier, stacking up to 10 times (i.e., a full 5-stack usage for a mobile cast, twice). Alongside this, perhaps they have a unique effect on their Wind DoTs that allows to be refreshed earlier at relatively little potency loss, allowing for mobility in that regard as well. Finally, Raise itself is no longer a 8s cast that returns the enemy from K.O. instantly, but merely a 2.5s cast that causes a certain amount of healing received to then reawaken them (which takes advantage of both Water's Wake and their heighted healing potency).

[NobleWinter]

Role skills, lost animations, and similar skills like Troubadour, Shield Samba, and Tactician have been something bothering me for quite awhile. I love this thread. The Physical Ranged Mitigation skills in particular are annoying to me becuase they completely ignore what makes role skills great. A new player who has only leveled Bard learns Troubadour and has a messy tooltip telling them it can't be stacked with Tactician or Shield Samba but these skills they have never used before have completely different animations and buff icons so how in the world are they supposed to keep themselves from overwriting them on accident? A unified buff icon like the role skills provide would work wonders becuase then they could see someone already applied the buff. Healers with Rescue and Surecast need to be able to recognize that players with Arm's Length (a skill they may have never used personally if they prefer casters) have the effect of Surecast and can't be Rescued. Arm's Legth and Surecast should look similiar so that they are more easily recognizable as serving the same function. Giving unique animations and skill names to every class while using similar buff icons would make things much easier to pick up for newer players and add so much more flavor to the individual jobs. Ta ks in particular would be well served by a unified buff icon for their larger mitigation tool so its easy to see they used the bigger Rampart.

[Shurrikhan]

A new player who has only leveled Bard learns Troubadour and has a messy tooltip telling them it can't be stacked with Tactician or Shield Samba but these skills they have never used before have completely different animations and buff icons so how in the world are they supposed to keep themselves from overwriting them on accident? A unified buff icon like the role skills provide would work wonders becuase then they could see someone already applied the buff. Healers with Rescue and Surecast need to be able to recognize that players with Arm's Length (a skill they may have never used personally if they prefer casters) have the effect of Surecast and can't be Rescued.

Or maybe, just maybe, we could:

• make Samba, Troubadour, and Tactician not mere reskins of each other, and
• make targets immune to a given effect (such as Draw-ins or Knock-backs) invalid targets for skills which only apply that effect (such as Rescue or Blank).

[Raikai]

I'd support this regardless, but it's worth noting that some of the Role Actions, especially in their current iterations, are pure bloat:[INDENT][INDENT]Shirk

Shirk's tank-swap QoL would be better done by changes to Provoke itself. As for a mere hit-on-refresh maintenance function... such adds to annoyance without adding fundamentally anything to agency. Buff Provoke's functionality and get rid of Shirk.

I would also say, for tanks, bake Rampart into their basic defensive cooldown, while adjusting the % and giving it 2 charges that can stack, so people that used to stack Rampart with something else could potentially still achieve the same.

Lucid Dreaming stands in a weird place, because how MP became meaningless... I don't even prioritize Piety as a healer and heck, I only have to use it in the rare rez-chain situations (and often just wiping and restarting is better). The thing is, LD lost its importance to healers after SB when they got a number of MP-free oGCDs and instant casts. If your group is doing good, it's rare to even need to spend a lot of MP with hardcast heals.

[Shurrikhan]

I would also say, for tanks, bake Rampart into their basic defensive cooldown, while adjusting the % and giving it 2 charges that can stack, so people that used to stack Rampart with something else could potentially still achieve the same.

I would hope we could go further in differentiating those skills and their features that to give each the same two-charge affordance, but yes, that would absolutely be a step in the right direction, imo.

Lucid Dreaming stands in a weird place, because how MP became meaningless... I don't even prioritize Piety as a healer and heck, I only have to use it in the rare rez-chain situations (and often just wiping and restarting is better). The thing is, LD lost its importance to healers after SB when they got a number of MP-free oGCDs and instant casts. If your group is doing good, it's rare to even need to spend a lot of MP with hardcast heals.

The problem to me is that even if MP was an extremely limited and therefore MP gains extremely useful, Lucid Dreaming would still have no place as a button in its current functionality. It has no cost, no timing advantage, no reason not to hit it as soon as it's refreshed. It plays like a passive, except it also requires a button that could otherwise be given to more interesting gameplay loops (i.e., one that require more than just that you track its CD and don't use it ahead of higher priority oGCDs within a given gap).

Worse, I suspect that even if we were to give it a reason not to just be used on refresh (such as in instead reducing MP costs for X seconds, or refreshing a larger portion but only of missing MP, it still wouldn't feel like a well-designed or worthwhile skill.

[Grimoire-M]

I would hope we could go further in differentiating those skills and their features that to give each the same two-charge affordance, but yes, that would absolutely be a step in the right direction, imo.



The problem to me is that even if MP was an extremely limited and therefore MP gains extremely useful, Lucid Dreaming would still have no place as a button in its current functionality. It has no cost, no timing advantage, no reason not to hit it as soon as it's refreshed. It plays like a passive, except it also requires a button that could otherwise be given to more interesting gameplay loops (i.e., one that require more than just that you track its CD and don't use it ahead of higher priority oGCDs within a given gap).

Worse, I suspect that even if we were to give it a reason not to just be used on refresh (such as in instead reducing MP costs for X seconds, or refreshing a larger portion but only of missing MP, it still wouldn't feel like a well-designed or worthwhile skill.

Honestly Lucid Dreaming shouldn’t even be a role skill. Each MP based job has their own unique requirements anyways, so it makes sense to tune their effective regeneration capabilities to reflect the actual cost and use of their spells. Really the only reason it exists is as a baseline value to fall back on in case fights go wrong. Piety by contrast is mostly a comfort stat that players adjust to their needs, but the devs clearly want it to be more than that given its prevalence on healer gear. Part of me wonders if their testing results in a bias towards piety gear because of that.

[Alexandre_Noireau]

On to MP, the issue was to standarize it among all clases. Not only looks awfuly out of place that every class has 10k MP no matter what and HP varies. It's managment has become irrelevant.