Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Dzian]

I don't know about that honestly.

"3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers."

This could be interpreted in many ways. For me, tanks who don't pull more than one pack of mobs, DPS that is not doing DPS and healers who can't sustain me despite not dps-ing interfere with my game experience.
Sprouts who are willing to learn are the exception.

However, I am sure I can't get someone banned for such a subjective reason. I guess the same could be said for someone whose inflated ego got offended when they were told that they need to learn how to play.

This is where they just blanket bomb it with "different playstyles"

You can effectively kick anyone from a group for any reason at all and be covered by the "different playstyles" reason.

I've gotten flack from and have in the past even been reported for kicking people out of party finder groups a few times before and just said "different playstyles"
That guy dying 4 times in our farm party run is "disrupting our game experience"

[HisShadowX]

But you also have to get half of the rest of the party to agree with you that it's reasonable to kick the player. That can be much harder to do.

The majority of kicks I see are for AFKs/extended DCs. It's very rare that I see anyone getting kicked for "being bad at the game" unless they're outright ignoring the rest of the group and causing problems as a result.

That's because most people in the game are casuals and want to try to assist the player. I once witnessed a bunch of hardcore masochists go in on a tank who was in his or her early levels and during that point in the game the armor for example, in the legs does not allow you to equip foot armor which the hardcore minority doesn't understand. I backed up my tank and we both left.

When we are in a raid and we got that one 'hardcore masochists' that turns an easy raid into a dreaded experience, because this person keeps whining about the mechanics this and the mechanics that at this point I open the floor to kick that person out because this person has created a toxic and hostile environment. Just the other day we had a run and were going in on Deathgaze one of these hardcore masochists just annoyed the entire party often causing people to stop what they are doing and stutter because that person was bossing them around and confusing people.

Thank God the entire raid was against dude and we kicked him as soon as we defeated that boss.

I am thankfully starting to see a trend kicking hardcore players creating a toxic environment whining about the mechanics and complaining every five seconds and it's a good thing.

I know the forum houses more hardcore masochists and this might be an unpopular opinion on the forums, but in the game, it looks like more people are supporting kicking out toxic hardcore players.

[HisShadowX]

which is quite sad, if we're being honest?
refusing to use integral parts of your kit because [you don't like it/don't like the animations/whatever] is not something that should be defended or be proud of and yet it's okay because people would rather waste another person's time (and be proud of that) than put in a modicum of effort when it comes to pressing f-ing buttons every few seconds, the utter selfishness of that is amazing
you know what's fun? a nice and quick dungeon run where everybody knows what they're doing and presses their buttons correctly, everyone in the group will have had fun that way!



heh, the exact same happened to me, though it was the tank who defended their whm and they kicked me and saved me a headache, the tank even made a post about me in the DF thread!

What an awesome tank. The fact he was being patient with his healer when they are learning. Its not hard at all to have a max level character. Before I was midway into Heavenward I already had three level 80s.

I wish they had a, 'Vote to Kick Hardcore Masochist and send him back to FFXI and Everquest to fight bats and rats and delevel with his or her own kind'

[HisShadowX]

As you have said. I'm just trying to offer perspective from those who do. Fair and unfair are important to someone who experiences empathy.



Societal norms come about because of general consensus. In the FFXIV society you are an uncommon case. If everyone played and acted at your standard the game would be far more hostile to new players, less profitable as it would be casual unfriendly, and possibly would have crashed and burned (or at least been abandoned to obscurity) long ago.

So my opinion is that while you can survive and play while being of your particular stance, you are not "healthy" for the growth of this game and it's community and will be scorned for your lack of consideration of others.

Again, these things are important to most people.


In all honesty I have my doubts as to your actually holding the position you defend as it is, as I've put forward before, close to sociopathy, and true detachment from any empathy is rare for the human condition. Especially if you are interested in something like a JRPG where we are introduced to and expected to care about characters that aren't us. Yes you can play this game without paying any attention to that, but FFXIV does tend to lean heavily on that aspect.

I completely agree. It sounds like this player should most likely go back to playing FFXI or Everquest. I remember when they closed down SWG due to The Old Republic starting up its service. The game was geared to be the WoW Killer and geared towards casuals. In fact, most of the early systems were geared towards casuals. The problem was the SWG Hardcore Minority all moved over and since they are a loud voice online, but a small minority of players, thus why games made for those people go free2play or die they took over the direction of the game.

I remember it was a culture shock for for these players that players would get mad at these SWG Guilds and players for not announcing and declaring themselves a DKP Guild as DKP became a scarlet letter a guild would wear as a shame for being who they were and to let people know beforehand what sort of people were in that guild. Sadly the staff at Austin listened to this minority and announced a Guild Summit, where all the SWG Guilds were invited to and the staff at Austin had announced no 'dungeon/duty finder' and harder content.

At this point 2 million people left and like with what happened with FFXIV all the heads of The Old Republic were fired and massive layoffs and sadly they introduced elements to bring back casuals after everyone had left.

They do not make games for people like him anymore sadly thankfully though FFXI is still up and running and he could always go over there and fight bats and rats with a full party.

[Caurcas]

What an awesome tank. The fact he was being patient with his healer when they are learning. Its not hard at all to have a max level character. Before I was midway into Heavenward I already had three level 80s.

I wish they had a, 'Vote to Kick Hardcore Masochist and send him back to FFXI and Everquest to fight bats and rats and delevel with his or her own kind'

You are sounding pretty toxic bro.

[Awha]

I completely agree. It sounds like this player should most likely go back to playing FFXI or Everquest. I remember when they closed down SWG due to The Old Republic starting up its service. The game was geared to be the WoW Killer and geared towards casuals. In fact, most of the early systems were geared towards casuals. The problem was the SWG Hardcore Minority all moved over and since they are a loud voice online, but a small minority of players, thus why games made for those people go free2play or die they took over the direction of the game.

I remember it was a culture shock for for these players that players would get mad at these SWG Guilds and players for not announcing and declaring themselves a DKP Guild as DKP became a scarlet letter a guild would wear as a shame for being who they were and to let people know beforehand what sort of people were in that guild. Sadly the staff at Austin listened to this minority and announced a Guild Summit, where all the SWG Guilds were invited to and the staff at Austin had announced no 'dungeon/duty finder' and harder content.

At this point 2 million people left and like with what happened with FFXIV all the heads of The Old Republic were fired and massive layoffs and sadly they introduced elements to bring back casuals after everyone had left.

They do not make games for people like him anymore sadly thankfully though FFXI is still up and running and he could always go over there and fight bats and rats with a full party.

Nah I am good here, and I will keep kicking people from my DF that inconvenience me in any shape or form. Though I will say early TOR was a blast, loved the blunt honesty the community had, loved that BioWare forced people to interact with the game world and put important items in a forced pvp zone even on pve servers.

Sure they do not make games for people like me, and that is fine cause if they provide me with the tools that allow me to have control over my own play experience I will do just that.

[MyakotApelsia]

What an awesome tank. The fact he was being patient with his healer when they are learning. Its not hard at all to have a max level character. Before I was midway into Heavenward I already had three level 80s.

Yikes. If you consider wiping at 2 enemies "learning" and it being "good thing" that people put up with it - you really need to set your priorities straight, because to wipe on something like you need to put next to 0 effort.

I wish they had a, 'Vote to Kick Hardcore Masochist and send him back to FFXI and Everquest to fight bats and rats and delevel with his or her own kind'

No need to be that extreme really. I doubt you would like if someone said that "i wish you could send all casual players back to Second Life".

That's because most people in the game are casuals and want to try to assist the player.

"Ignoring lack of competence" doesnt mean "Assisting". If anything, it only makes things worse.

I once witnessed a bunch of hardcore masochists go in on a tank who was in his or her early levels and during that point in the game the armor for example, in the legs does not allow you to equip foot armor which the hardcore minority doesn't understand.

If anything, you probably just ran into some ignorant dude that is too full of himself.

I am thankfully starting to see a trend kicking hardcore players creating a toxic environment whining about the mechanics and complaining every five seconds and it's a good thing.

Depends on context, if someone is complaining about mechanics, it doesnt mean they are "hardcore masochists" (also never heard this term before, did you come up with it in like 5 seconds? lmao. Could have at least looked up definition of "masochist"). Most "hardcore" fanbase will just do mechanics in question without complaining, since they are good enough at the game to not have issues with those. There are casual players that whine about mechanics (See: Shinryu on release), does that mean they are "hardcore masochists"? Questionable

The term that you are looking for is "Toxic Players", and those are not limited to one group of players. Though you make an impression of someone who just calls everyone who doesnt share your opinion "hardcore masochist" just because of ignorance on subject really.
Asking someone to do more than nothing does not make someone "hardcore", you can be casual and still ask for decent performance

[HisShadowX]

Yikes. If you consider wiping at 2 enemies "learning" and it being "good thing" that people put up with it - you really need to set your priorities straight, because to wipe on something like you need to put next to 0 effort.

No need to be that extreme really. I doubt you would like if someone said that "i wish you could send all casual players back to Second Life".

Depends on context, if someone is complaining about mechanics, it doesnt mean they are "hardcore masochists" (also never heard this term before, did you come up with it in like 5 seconds? lmao. Could have at least looked up definition of "masochist"). Most "hardcore" fanbase will just do mechanics in question without complaining, since they are good enough at the game to not have issues with those. There are casual players that whine about mechanics (See: Shinryu on release), does that mean they are "hardcore masochists"? Questionable

The term that you are looking for is "Toxic Players", and those are not limited to one group of players. Though you make an impression of someone who just calls everyone who doesnt share your opinion "hardcore masochist" just because of ignorance on subject really.
Asking someone to do more than nothing does not make someone "hardcore", you can be casual and still ask for decent performance

Anyone who plays and enjoy the following games Matrix Online, FFXI, Everquest, City of Heros, Star Wars Galaxies, you know failed games I would consider a masochist. I have been playing MMORPGs Neverwinter Nights were released on AOL in the early 90s. As more people play MMORPGs you have seen the sliders shift towards casual from hardcore players.

A person doesn't have to agree with me to be a hardcore player. It's a form of preference those players prefer.

This is no longer FFXIV (Orginal) where you were punished for playing more than a couple hours a day. The game had to be completely remade due to the fact that the game was made for a hardcore minority because FFXI eventually made money YEARS ago.

Hardcore players because perhaps the games they play are ghost towns are coming into modern games and expecting everyone to play like them. They do not understand what they want would eventually kill or destroy the game like the original FFXIV. You guys had your chance to prove a game could be made for you people and no one played it except you people.

You guys are like a hermit community that goes underground for a decade and comes out and surprised no one likes your style of gameplay. The hermits from SWG were quite literally shocked and annoyed people demanded they list their guild as a DKP Guild and announce it when advertising because you were considered a bad person or almost as bad as a scammer for not telling people what you really were. As DKP guilds fell out of favor and with the advent of dungeon finders removing DKP Guild's monopolies over dungeon and raid rewards.

[HisShadowX]

We all wipe, speaking from again another dungeon I have seen this happen before. When fighting Alexander if we have new plays and new Tanks if no one tells them before hand, they need to use a limit break the entire raid is dead. Often what I see is people spamming, "LB" and if its a new tank to the raid, chances are they will not LB unless someone says for the tanks to do so since all tanks have it ingrained to never use a Limit Break.

There is a difference between trying to instruct someone new and criticizing them or the entire party or raid without offering constructive comments or solutions. I have had parties where we all learned something new because someone was very informative and my play style has evolved because of good advice.

I also have been in parties with someone or the entire party or raid was subject to every two minutes mechanics this and makes that yelling at people for not being in a certain place. At the same time this person which is often a DPS is standing there doing nothing and auto attacking and not offering anything constructive towards the party but being bossy and literally doing nothing but auto attacking.

I was just in an Omega run with a new tank and the tank was new and did not know we needed to separate. Thank god the raid was supportive and before I could get to my keyboard some people were helping the dude out instead of yelling at the guy.

The problem with most hardcore players is they lack social skills in real life and online. Sometimes this can be due to a disability sometimes it can be due to playing in a dead MMORPG for years and they need to unlearn or refuse to unlearn the social norms for the new game they are in.

With me you have five wipes until I believe it's time to throw in the towel. I also try to understand sometimes again some of you hardcore people have social disabilities, but we have many people in this game who have other disabilities with poor motor skills.

I have had some Free Company companions who for the life of them could not avoid instant kills for Titan or Leviathan. In fact, they can't solo the content because they are unable to.

I have witnessed other MMORPGs help out people with disabilities. In fact ESO on consoles had auto voice on with a disabled chatbox (which I know would make you hardcore people mad because no one responds via the chatbox) and when you walk towards some people like in real life you can hear the audio conversation. I once walked into a town chatting about the new game areas and what people thought about PVP.

[HisShadowX]

One of the people responding you can tell with his voice had an impaired mind and was disabled. The way everyone around him, listened and responded to his back and was just so kind and helpful that sort of stuck with me as a player to see that sort of humanity in game. No one mocked him people offered advice on playing the game and also listened.

Working with people in this game sometimes can be frustrating, but you have to be patient and try to be helpful. I know you all love when someone is helpful towards you all. Spread the good will and work with your team don't yell at them, work with them. If the party does not work out, then hey, just disband or leave.