Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[HisShadowX]

which is quite sad, if we're being honest?
refusing to use integral parts of your kit because [you don't like it/don't like the animations/whatever] is not something that should be defended or be proud of and yet it's okay because people would rather waste another person's time (and be proud of that) than put in a modicum of effort when it comes to pressing f-ing buttons every few seconds, the utter selfishness of that is amazing
you know what's fun? a nice and quick dungeon run where everybody knows what they're doing and presses their buttons correctly, everyone in the group will have had fun that way!



heh, the exact same happened to me, though it was the tank who defended their whm and they kicked me and saved me a headache, the tank even made a post about me in the DF thread!

What an awesome tank. The fact he was being patient with his healer when they are learning. Its not hard at all to have a max level character. Before I was midway into Heavenward I already had three level 80s.

I wish they had a, 'Vote to Kick Hardcore Masochist and send him back to FFXI and Everquest to fight bats and rats and delevel with his or her own kind'

[MyakotApelsia]

What an awesome tank. The fact he was being patient with his healer when they are learning. Its not hard at all to have a max level character. Before I was midway into Heavenward I already had three level 80s.

Yikes. If you consider wiping at 2 enemies "learning" and it being "good thing" that people put up with it - you really need to set your priorities straight, because to wipe on something like you need to put next to 0 effort.

I wish they had a, 'Vote to Kick Hardcore Masochist and send him back to FFXI and Everquest to fight bats and rats and delevel with his or her own kind'

No need to be that extreme really. I doubt you would like if someone said that "i wish you could send all casual players back to Second Life".

That's because most people in the game are casuals and want to try to assist the player.

"Ignoring lack of competence" doesnt mean "Assisting". If anything, it only makes things worse.

I once witnessed a bunch of hardcore masochists go in on a tank who was in his or her early levels and during that point in the game the armor for example, in the legs does not allow you to equip foot armor which the hardcore minority doesn't understand.

If anything, you probably just ran into some ignorant dude that is too full of himself.

I am thankfully starting to see a trend kicking hardcore players creating a toxic environment whining about the mechanics and complaining every five seconds and it's a good thing.

Depends on context, if someone is complaining about mechanics, it doesnt mean they are "hardcore masochists" (also never heard this term before, did you come up with it in like 5 seconds? lmao. Could have at least looked up definition of "masochist"). Most "hardcore" fanbase will just do mechanics in question without complaining, since they are good enough at the game to not have issues with those. There are casual players that whine about mechanics (See: Shinryu on release), does that mean they are "hardcore masochists"? Questionable

The term that you are looking for is "Toxic Players", and those are not limited to one group of players. Though you make an impression of someone who just calls everyone who doesnt share your opinion "hardcore masochist" just because of ignorance on subject really.
Asking someone to do more than nothing does not make someone "hardcore", you can be casual and still ask for decent performance

[HisShadowX]

Yikes. If you consider wiping at 2 enemies "learning" and it being "good thing" that people put up with it - you really need to set your priorities straight, because to wipe on something like you need to put next to 0 effort.

No need to be that extreme really. I doubt you would like if someone said that "i wish you could send all casual players back to Second Life".

Depends on context, if someone is complaining about mechanics, it doesnt mean they are "hardcore masochists" (also never heard this term before, did you come up with it in like 5 seconds? lmao. Could have at least looked up definition of "masochist"). Most "hardcore" fanbase will just do mechanics in question without complaining, since they are good enough at the game to not have issues with those. There are casual players that whine about mechanics (See: Shinryu on release), does that mean they are "hardcore masochists"? Questionable

The term that you are looking for is "Toxic Players", and those are not limited to one group of players. Though you make an impression of someone who just calls everyone who doesnt share your opinion "hardcore masochist" just because of ignorance on subject really.
Asking someone to do more than nothing does not make someone "hardcore", you can be casual and still ask for decent performance

Anyone who plays and enjoy the following games Matrix Online, FFXI, Everquest, City of Heros, Star Wars Galaxies, you know failed games I would consider a masochist. I have been playing MMORPGs Neverwinter Nights were released on AOL in the early 90s. As more people play MMORPGs you have seen the sliders shift towards casual from hardcore players.

A person doesn't have to agree with me to be a hardcore player. It's a form of preference those players prefer.

This is no longer FFXIV (Orginal) where you were punished for playing more than a couple hours a day. The game had to be completely remade due to the fact that the game was made for a hardcore minority because FFXI eventually made money YEARS ago.

Hardcore players because perhaps the games they play are ghost towns are coming into modern games and expecting everyone to play like them. They do not understand what they want would eventually kill or destroy the game like the original FFXIV. You guys had your chance to prove a game could be made for you people and no one played it except you people.

You guys are like a hermit community that goes underground for a decade and comes out and surprised no one likes your style of gameplay. The hermits from SWG were quite literally shocked and annoyed people demanded they list their guild as a DKP Guild and announce it when advertising because you were considered a bad person or almost as bad as a scammer for not telling people what you really were. As DKP guilds fell out of favor and with the advent of dungeon finders removing DKP Guild's monopolies over dungeon and raid rewards.

[Ammokkx]

Hardcore players because perhaps the games they play are ghost towns are coming into modern games and expecting everyone to play like them. They do not understand what they want would eventually kill or destroy the game like the original FFXIV. You guys had your chance to prove a game could be made for you people and no one played it except you people.

excuse me?

the original FFXIV was a laggy, clunky, bug-ridden mess with awful servers and really bad menus. The game didn't flop due to being "hardcore" or whatever, it flopped because it was just a downright awful game.

At least bring up an example that doesn't have a million polygons in a single potted plant.

[Arillyn]

Anyone who plays and enjoy the following games Matrix Online, FFXI, Everquest, City of Heros, Star Wars Galaxies, you know failed games I would consider a masochist. I have been playing MMORPGs Neverwinter Nights were released on AOL in the early 90s. As more people play MMORPGs you have seen the sliders shift towards casual from hardcore players.

Hang on - FFXI and Everquest were hardly failed games. They are old MMOs for sure but not failed at all. Heck, people still play them and FFXI still makes SE plenty of money. So failed? Nah, they aren't.

Hardcore players because perhaps the games they play are ghost towns are coming into modern games and expecting everyone to play like them. They do not understand what they want would eventually kill or destroy the game like the original FFXIV. You guys had your chance to prove a game could be made for you people and no one played it except you people.

FFXIV 1.0 died not because of hardcore players. It was a shitshow when it was released - the engine and code were a mess. The lag was horrible, the menus were a mess, the leveling system was a mess, so many bugs - SE was going to update it and then realized it was in such a bad shape they couldn't and had to rebuild it. THAT is why we got 2.0. Not because of hardcore players. If you really want to know the story of what happened and why, you should go check out the Noclip videos about it. It explains everything really well, especially for those who didn't play 1.0.

[TaleraRistain]

Hang on - FFXI and Everquest were hardly failed games. They are old MMOs for sure but not failed at all. Heck, people still play them and FFXI still makes SE plenty of money. So failed? Nah, they aren't.

Especially EQ. It just got an expansion last year. It's a niche game and it does drive home the idea that certain ideas with older MMOs don't work in the current environment, but it's certainly not failed.

[MyakotApelsia]

Anyone who plays and enjoy the following games Matrix Online, FFXI, Everquest, City of Heros, Star Wars Galaxies, you know failed games I would consider a masochist. I have been playing MMORPGs Neverwinter Nights were released on AOL in the early 90s. As more people play MMORPGs you have seen the sliders shift towards casual from hardcore players.

Tf are you talking about? Most people dont even know about at least half of those mmorpgs, that literally doesnt mean anything. FFXI? Everquest? Failed games? Do you even know what you are talking about?

Original FFXIV died for reasons far beyond what you are saying. Your whole sentence just shows how ignorant you are in that topic. 1.0 was broken, unstable, barely playable game, with tons of questionable choices, and it died because of that, not because of some "hardcore minority" you have imagined for yourself. Hell, overwhelming majority of players, both casuals and hardcore players agree that 1.0 was a mistake. Stop spewing nonsense without doing at least 10 minute research.

If you consider asking for basic competence to be "bad thing enforced by hardcore minority", then i suggest maybe rethinking your priorities.

Smh, show the forums on the doll where hardcore players have touched you. You are literally just talking about things you dont even know about, and dont bother reading to find out.

There is a difference between trying to instruct someone new and criticizing them or the entire party or raid without offering constructive comments or solutions. I have had parties where we all learned something new because someone was very informative and my play style has evolved because of good advice.

Large part of this thread is literally about people that dont know about anything and that refuse to learn, even when you give them solutions. Have you even bothered checking out, idk, last 10 pages?
General agreement here is that advice needs to be there, and there are quite a bit of posts about how people dont react to those advices well

The problem with most hardcore players is they lack social skills in real life and online. Sometimes this can be due to a disability sometimes it can be due to playing in a dead MMORPG for years and they need to unlearn or refuse to unlearn the social norms for the new game they are in.

What kind of hole did you pull this "argument" from? This is barely ever a case. Good job thinking up another fantasy for yourself i guess.
If anything, if you think that asking for people to do their job is not the social norm, then you 1) Imply that ffxiv is a game where you are supposed to be deadweight, 2) imply you are part of it.
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It really feels like you dont understand the difference between "hardcore player", "casual player" and an idiot. Most of first and second parties are fine and chill people that will help anyone who needs it. Last part of community is just stupid. That doesnt make them "casual" or "hardcore".
I did an expert roulette once on my white mage, and someone started to tell me about how bad of a player i am because i dont spam cure2 exclusively. And sure, i didnt use it, because i have all other heals that do the job better. That complaint was full of swears and stuff.
Was it hardcore player? No. Wanna know why? Because hardcore players know how game works.
Was it casual player? Not really. Those usually are pretty chill and wont harass anyone over a thing like that.
What was that? An idiot, simple. Going around, harassing people for things that he doesnt even know about. Like how you just did 2 posts in a row full of misinformation and your fantasies.

Working with people in this game sometimes can be frustrating, but you have to be patient and try to be helpful.

Doesnt work so well when the person you try to help starts talking smack because "you dont pay my sub"

[HisShadowX]

We all wipe, speaking from again another dungeon I have seen this happen before. When fighting Alexander if we have new plays and new Tanks if no one tells them before hand, they need to use a limit break the entire raid is dead. Often what I see is people spamming, "LB" and if its a new tank to the raid, chances are they will not LB unless someone says for the tanks to do so since all tanks have it ingrained to never use a Limit Break.

There is a difference between trying to instruct someone new and criticizing them or the entire party or raid without offering constructive comments or solutions. I have had parties where we all learned something new because someone was very informative and my play style has evolved because of good advice.

I also have been in parties with someone or the entire party or raid was subject to every two minutes mechanics this and makes that yelling at people for not being in a certain place. At the same time this person which is often a DPS is standing there doing nothing and auto attacking and not offering anything constructive towards the party but being bossy and literally doing nothing but auto attacking.

I was just in an Omega run with a new tank and the tank was new and did not know we needed to separate. Thank god the raid was supportive and before I could get to my keyboard some people were helping the dude out instead of yelling at the guy.

The problem with most hardcore players is they lack social skills in real life and online. Sometimes this can be due to a disability sometimes it can be due to playing in a dead MMORPG for years and they need to unlearn or refuse to unlearn the social norms for the new game they are in.

With me you have five wipes until I believe it's time to throw in the towel. I also try to understand sometimes again some of you hardcore people have social disabilities, but we have many people in this game who have other disabilities with poor motor skills.

I have had some Free Company companions who for the life of them could not avoid instant kills for Titan or Leviathan. In fact, they can't solo the content because they are unable to.

I have witnessed other MMORPGs help out people with disabilities. In fact ESO on consoles had auto voice on with a disabled chatbox (which I know would make you hardcore people mad because no one responds via the chatbox) and when you walk towards some people like in real life you can hear the audio conversation. I once walked into a town chatting about the new game areas and what people thought about PVP.

[Rinhi]

What an awesome tank. The fact he was being patient with his healer when they are learning. Its not hard at all to have a max level character. Before I was midway into Heavenward I already had three level 80s.

I wish they had a, 'Vote to Kick Hardcore Masochist and send him back to FFXI and Everquest to fight bats and rats and delevel with his or her own kind'

learning? their white mage was at 80, dude, they really should know how to play their class at that level

[Wavaryen]

learning? their white mage was at 80, dude, they really should know how to play their class at that level

Not everyone learns at the same rate, and the game does not really teach you how to play your class at max level. In fact many players get better playing what we consider the wrong way and get decent at playing that way.


It is best not to assume that just because someone levels up to max, that they should know how to play.