"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[linayar]

Stepping outside ones comfort zone is hos we progress change. SE sticking with this notion that parsing is bad because people have had a bad experience in other games or have been person affected by parsing in the past is weird. Parsing itself has no inherent good or bad value. It depends on how it is used and that is where GM's come into play.

SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

[Awha]

SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing. The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

It really isn't as black and white as that. I completely understand why SE don't want parsers in the game because I have seen what happens when a game allows it.

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

And it really sucks when the person getting criticised also doesn't know how to look at parser data correctly and actually believe they are bad at the game when they're told they are. Some players are not experienced enough to realise how much someone else's performance can impact their own.

Also there are players who expect perfection all the time from those around them and nitpick tiny mistakes or have a hissy fit because someone in normal mode doesn't have excellent ogcd use when it's not even required in normal mode. Some people are just incapable of adjusting their expectations for the content they're in.

The problem isn't the parsers, it's the people who misuse them.

I'm not against parsers, if I was I wouldn't touch savage with a ten foot pole. I'm against their misuse but because misuse is not something that is possible to fix SE have elected to not permit them. In their eyes in game parsers are more trouble than they're worth.

That said it would be nice if there was a personal parser in the game that gave you data and a grade that takes your ilvl into account after you exit the instance so you can examine it yourself at your own pace without the risk of someone ignorant or meanspirited giving you an unnecessarily hard time over your performance while in the middle of doing it. SE are really good at making nice and clean UIs that are easy to understand so I'm sure any parser they would create would be quite user friendly. But even if that was in the game some people would hound someone after they exit the instance to call them out on something and that can lead to drama as well...so I doubt we will ever get anything like this.

Until the community can prove that parser misuse and the toxicity that can come from that would be rare SE are never going to give us a parser.

In the grand scheme I think parsing abuse is on the rare side here. Sure I grant that if it was more openly used the amount of abuse would go up though that would probably just be due to the amount of players openly using it going up. I do not think the overall case frequency would go up when adjusted for the increase of usage.

It is also a weird image from an enforcement standpoint breaking TOS bad but operate in this grey area where technically your action is against the TOS but we will let it slide unless you do something report worthy with it. Wouldn’t that be how it would be treated if it was openly used?

[linayar]

Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing.

Your whole argument rests on making it seem ambiguous what people might do with the data, but we do know what people will do with it. Data by itself is not toxic, agreed, but it's another ammunition that people will abuse/misuse to be toxic. This is not a we-don't-know-if-it-will-cause-more-toxicity-out-in-the-open type of scenario. We do know, and that's why its use is restricted.

The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

The problem is that things will get out of hand more often if parsing is allowed openly. There is a deterrence effect in place just by not allowing it. Also, if they allow it for PC, they would want to provide it for console as well, so that's another limiting factor in things getting out of hand because a significant portion of the player base does not have access to it.

So, yes, they would still be doing what they do now, but more often, so it's still more work for no reason when the current situation already works for them.

[Awha]

Your whole argument rests on making it seem ambiguous what people might do with the data, but we do know what people will do with it. Data by itself is not toxic, agreed, but it's another ammunition that people will abuse/misuse to be toxic. This is not a we-don't-know-if-it-will-cause-more-toxicity-out-in-the-open type of scenario. We do know, and that's why its use is restricted.

The problem is that things will get out of hand more often if parsing is allowed openly. There is a deterrence effect in place just by not allowing it. Also, if they allow it for PC, they would want to provide it for console as well, so that's another limiting factor in things getting out of hand because a significant portion of the player base does not have access to it.

So, yes, they would still be doing what they do now, but more often, so it's still more work for no reason when the current situation already works for them.

We do not know we can speculate and postulate that open access to data would lead to an overall increase in toxicity, or maybe things would stay roughly the same i terms of how toxic things are with being removed ‘ barred from groups due to information. I would not say I have an argument per-se cause my position is this will never change I am mostly just talking about how I wish things were.

We only know based off other games, other balancing structures especially where character progress is tied mostly through gear. In FFXIV endgame raiding is not much the focus of character development. You can reach the height of character development ties to story never touching savage especially with things like relic weapons.

This game does not really have a FoTM structure and encounter design is heavily scripted so I personally cannot say with 100% certainty that adding parsers would lead to a higher when accounted for increased availability. Unless you are saying that the overall increase is all that matters which is unfair comparison since of course with increased availability more issues of toxicity would occur. If I were to make an argument my position would be that the overall increase in availability would not increase the amount of toxicity that would statistically differ in terms of what GM’s / community face now.

Sure if we take into account the requirements to make a system that works for console that is a different story altogether cause I have already stated this would never happen so I was not taking into consideration since I did not think this was a debate on if they should or should not add them. Cause that is irrelevant because they never will. I was talking about how I do not agree with the general philosophy behind their choice.

Though it is funny not saying you are doing this but in other cases some like to say one cannot compare FFXIV to other games yet when it comes to parsing we are quick to site our negative experiences in other games as a reason to not have them.

[linayar]

Unless you are saying that the overall increase is all that matters which is unfair comparison since of course with increased availability more issues of toxicity would occur.

Why is that unfair, because that is indeed the issue?

some like to say one cannot compare FFXIV to other games yet when it comes to parsing we are quick to site our negative experiences in other games as a reason to not have them.

Well, I think you have to look at any comparison being made and judge its validity on its own. Do you believe social interactions within different games in the same genre not comparable, especially one as similar as, say, FFXIV and WoW? There are definitely differences between the two games, and one has to be careful with what is being compared, but I think social interaction has a lot of human factor to it, and plenty of people have played both FFXIV and WoW, so some things can translate well between the two games given enough similarity.

[Awha]

Why is that unfair, because that is indeed the issue?

Well, I think you have to look at any comparison being made and judge its validity on its own. Do you believe social interactions within different games in the same genre not comparable, especially one as similar as, say, FFXIV and WoW? There are definitely differences between the two games, and one has to be careful with what is being compared, but I think social interaction has a lot of human factor to it, and plenty of people have played both FFXIV and WoW, so some things can translate well between the two games given enough similarity.

It is unfair in my eyes cause when at the very least when I look at issues when you do not adjust for increase population data most data can been viewed unfair, cause if course with more people more issues will occur no one is denying it. As stated if I were to make a position it would be that Theo shift would not be statistically different from the volume of current report’s regarding toxicity or parser harassment when accounted for the uptick in availability.

Just seems like an unfair way to look at the data, though you are right more cases wouldn’t occur though can we really say it would be all that different from what we have. Personally I cannot say, but I am sure others may view differently.

Though in terms of social interactions between each game even if they are the same genre I would honestly have an easier time comparing gameplay elements cause the social experience at least for me differs greatly. Not sure what it is but the social experience even down to the trolls seem more unfiltered and things that public outcry here I do not think would phase the WoW community.

Though I am in the camp that while games may be comparable the community often cannot. Like I can compare game design philosophy between DOTA 2, LoL, HOTS the communities differ so greatly at least in my opinion that one cannot fairly compare the three. Same is fir me and FFXIV. Hope that makes sense. As an example I find myself far less crash in FFXIV then compared to FFXIV and more laid back I guess. Even my friends who do not play FFXIV but we use the same discord say I am like a differ t person.idk at least in my eyes something about each game draws a different vibe out.

[linayar]

It is unfair in my eyes cause when at the very least when I look at issues when you do not adjust for increase population data most data can been viewed unfair, cause if course with more people more issues will occur no one is denying it. As stated if I were to make a position it would be that Theo shift would not be statistically different from the volume of current report’s regarding toxicity or parser harassment when accounted for the uptick in availability.

Just seems like an unfair way to look at the data, though you are right more cases wouldn’t occur though can we really say it would be all that different from what we have. Personally I cannot say, but I am sure others may view differently.

Well, the thing is, when you say to adjust for the increase in population data, keep in mind that the population itself does not necessarily change. So when you have a means of being toxic being more freely used within the same population, of course there will be an increase in toxicity. So making decision to prevent that is not being unfair with regard to the population data, just a natural reaction to an inevitable outcome.

Though in terms of social interactions between each game even if they are the same genre I would honestly have an easier time comparing gameplay elements cause the social experience at least for me differs greatly. Not sure what it is but the social experience even down to the trolls seem more unfiltered and things that public outcry here I do not think would phase the WoW community.

Though I am in the camp that while games may be comparable the community often cannot. Like I can compare game design philosophy between DOTA 2, LoL, HOTS the communities differ so greatly at least in my opinion that one cannot fairly compare the three. Same is fir me and FFXIV. Hope that makes sense. As an example I find myself far less crash in FFXIV then compared to FFXIV and more laid back I guess. Even my friends who do not play FFXIV but we use the same discord say I am like a differ t person.idk at least in my eyes something about each game draws a different vibe out.

Specifically, the interaction being compared is grouped PVE content with GCD-based action system intended to kill enemies through an instance with other people via random matchmaking or selective party making. The fact that one community is more casual than another with respect to gear or any other factor does not change the composition of the overall community in both games having players with different interests coming together to play.

In fact, you've said several times how you prefer what WoW has in terms of social interaction, and allowing parsing is one way to be more similar to WoW in that regard, so the comparison becomes more valid as well with respect to the effect within the community.