"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[Penthea]

The idea of parsing and collecting data for improvement being bad is a lie spread by people scared of having to do better in alot of content they wanna do, but never wanna put the effort into.

It really isn't as black and white as that. I completely understand why SE don't want parsers in the game because I have seen what happens when a game allows it.

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

And it really sucks when the person getting criticised also doesn't know how to look at parser data correctly and actually believe they are bad at the game when they're told they are. Some players are not experienced enough to realise how much someone else's performance can impact their own.

Also there are players who expect perfection all the time from those around them and nitpick tiny mistakes or have a hissy fit because someone in normal mode doesn't have excellent ogcd use when it's not even required in normal mode. Some people are just incapable of adjusting their expectations for the content they're in.

The problem isn't the parsers, it's the people who misuse them.

I'm not against parsers, if I was I wouldn't touch savage with a ten foot pole. I'm against their misuse but because misuse is not something that is possible to fix SE have elected to not permit them. In their eyes in game parsers are more trouble than they're worth.

That said it would be nice if there was a personal parser in the game that gave you data and a grade that takes your ilvl into account after you exit the instance so you can examine it yourself at your own pace without the risk of someone ignorant or meanspirited giving you an unnecessarily hard time over your performance while in the middle of doing it. SE are really good at making nice and clean UIs that are easy to understand so I'm sure any parser they would create would be quite user friendly. But even if that was in the game some people would hound someone after they exit the instance to call them out on something and that can lead to drama as well...so I doubt we will ever get anything like this.

Until the community can prove that parser misuse and the toxicity that can come from that would be rare SE are never going to give us a parser.

[Awha]

SE is a business, so comfort zone has nothing to do with it. Why should they put more work for their GM to do?

Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing. The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

It really isn't as black and white as that. I completely understand why SE don't want parsers in the game because I have seen what happens when a game allows it.

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

And it really sucks when the person getting criticised also doesn't know how to look at parser data correctly and actually believe they are bad at the game when they're told they are. Some players are not experienced enough to realise how much someone else's performance can impact their own.

Also there are players who expect perfection all the time from those around them and nitpick tiny mistakes or have a hissy fit because someone in normal mode doesn't have excellent ogcd use when it's not even required in normal mode. Some people are just incapable of adjusting their expectations for the content they're in.

The problem isn't the parsers, it's the people who misuse them.

I'm not against parsers, if I was I wouldn't touch savage with a ten foot pole. I'm against their misuse but because misuse is not something that is possible to fix SE have elected to not permit them. In their eyes in game parsers are more trouble than they're worth.

That said it would be nice if there was a personal parser in the game that gave you data and a grade that takes your ilvl into account after you exit the instance so you can examine it yourself at your own pace without the risk of someone ignorant or meanspirited giving you an unnecessarily hard time over your performance while in the middle of doing it. SE are really good at making nice and clean UIs that are easy to understand so I'm sure any parser they would create would be quite user friendly. But even if that was in the game some people would hound someone after they exit the instance to call them out on something and that can lead to drama as well...so I doubt we will ever get anything like this.

Until the community can prove that parser misuse and the toxicity that can come from that would be rare SE are never going to give us a parser.

In the grand scheme I think parsing abuse is on the rare side here. Sure I grant that if it was more openly used the amount of abuse would go up though that would probably just be due to the amount of players openly using it going up. I do not think the overall case frequency would go up when adjusted for the increase of usage.

It is also a weird image from an enforcement standpoint breaking TOS bad but operate in this grey area where technically your action is against the TOS but we will let it slide unless you do something report worthy with it. Wouldn’t that be how it would be treated if it was openly used?

[Karl0217]

Many people misuse parsers. They glance at numbers without taking things like gear or someone else making that person's job harder into consideration. They look at a tiny portion of the picture and judge someone as if that's the whole story.

Sure you can inform them that they're not looking at the big picture but this can be met with resistance. So then an argument starts when all you wanted to do was tell someone that taking a glance at a parser is often not enough to know what is truly going on.

A lot of people forget that number is a combination of many factors and player skill makes up at most 50% of it. Gear definitely counts; better gear means higher main stats and more weapon attack power to boost DPS while also meaning better health and damage resistances to decrease the chances of the player going down when they mess up a mechanic that isn't a insta-kill. Someone with i530 gear is going to be doing more damage on average then someone of the same class with the same skill in i510 gear.

And a lot of people also forget that the actions of other players on the team also affect that number. If you get a stack marker on your head and nobody stacks with you or the tank spins the boss and cleaves half the party, including you, well good luck with those numbers.

[Nayout]

Look this nice community everyone praises FF14 stops at the party finder for Savage fights and getting this harmonious static group concept that was developed when this MMO was 7/8 of the way to being dead over 7 years ago is not my idea of fun. There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt. There is a reason Delubrum Savage was dead content within a week and they had to change the rules for how to queue for it and it is not because the content was boring.

The easiest way to fix all of this for Square Enix would be to give HEAVY incentives for FC's to form into more coordinated raiding groups with bigger Savage raids of 16+ people. That alone would kill this static clique stuff you see and force people to organize into groups that see each other more often then once every content patch cycle.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...rtuned-for-LFR

SoS normal, overtuned
I think this explains a lot of your "bad experiences"

[MPK]

>Mateus
uh huh

[Awha]

>Mateus
uh huh

Crystal raiding is not that baaaad.

[linayar]

Once again we do not know if it would require additional GM’s to police such a thing.

Your whole argument rests on making it seem ambiguous what people might do with the data, but we do know what people will do with it. Data by itself is not toxic, agreed, but it's another ammunition that people will abuse/misuse to be toxic. This is not a we-don't-know-if-it-will-cause-more-toxicity-out-in-the-open type of scenario. We do know, and that's why its use is restricted.

The thing is even SE understands how useful parsing is that is why they turn a blind eye and it operates in some grey area. Personally I rather SE be open and allow for parsing across the board instead of just turning a blind eye and enforcing punishment when things get out of hand. Cause if they made parsing available to everyone they pretty much would be doing what they do now.

The problem is that things will get out of hand more often if parsing is allowed openly. There is a deterrence effect in place just by not allowing it. Also, if they allow it for PC, they would want to provide it for console as well, so that's another limiting factor in things getting out of hand because a significant portion of the player base does not have access to it.

So, yes, they would still be doing what they do now, but more often, so it's still more work for no reason when the current situation already works for them.

[Catwho]

Savage raiding is infinitely more tolerable when you're with a group of friends you trust as opposed to strangers who just want to get in and get done. I didn't really participate until my social linkshell formed a "baby savage" group to help a member who had missed a year of content due to.... having a baby. (Valid reason!) It was to catch her up so we started from scratch at E1S and went from there.

We die a lot. We screw up a lot. We fail a lot. Sometimes one person uploads things to FFlogs, not to shame but to help us analyze what is going wrong. Eventually the stars align, we clear, and move on.

I would never ever ever do this content in a learning party with people I didn't know already. But that doesn't mean the content is too hard, and it doesn't mean you're allowed to perform poorly in a pick up group.

[demonofelru]

Reading posts like this, I am starting to realize why some fans of Final Fantasy are against Online games being included in the numbered titles.

Maybe they were onto something when they thought that prestige of being a numbered entry in the Final Fantasy series shouldn't go to an "MMO".

I've never heard a Final Fantasy fan say this about 2.0 and beyond. FFXIV is the currently best main line FF game Square has put out in 15 years story and character-wise, which are what most people play Final Fantasy for.

[Awha]

Your whole argument rests on making it seem ambiguous what people might do with the data, but we do know what people will do with it. Data by itself is not toxic, agreed, but it's another ammunition that people will abuse/misuse to be toxic. This is not a we-don't-know-if-it-will-cause-more-toxicity-out-in-the-open type of scenario. We do know, and that's why its use is restricted.

The problem is that things will get out of hand more often if parsing is allowed openly. There is a deterrence effect in place just by not allowing it. Also, if they allow it for PC, they would want to provide it for console as well, so that's another limiting factor in things getting out of hand because a significant portion of the player base does not have access to it.

So, yes, they would still be doing what they do now, but more often, so it's still more work for no reason when the current situation already works for them.

We do not know we can speculate and postulate that open access to data would lead to an overall increase in toxicity, or maybe things would stay roughly the same i terms of how toxic things are with being removed ‘ barred from groups due to information. I would not say I have an argument per-se cause my position is this will never change I am mostly just talking about how I wish things were.

We only know based off other games, other balancing structures especially where character progress is tied mostly through gear. In FFXIV endgame raiding is not much the focus of character development. You can reach the height of character development ties to story never touching savage especially with things like relic weapons.

This game does not really have a FoTM structure and encounter design is heavily scripted so I personally cannot say with 100% certainty that adding parsers would lead to a higher when accounted for increased availability. Unless you are saying that the overall increase is all that matters which is unfair comparison since of course with increased availability more issues of toxicity would occur. If I were to make an argument my position would be that the overall increase in availability would not increase the amount of toxicity that would statistically differ in terms of what GM’s / community face now.

Sure if we take into account the requirements to make a system that works for console that is a different story altogether cause I have already stated this would never happen so I was not taking into consideration since I did not think this was a debate on if they should or should not add them. Cause that is irrelevant because they never will. I was talking about how I do not agree with the general philosophy behind their choice.

Though it is funny not saying you are doing this but in other cases some like to say one cannot compare FFXIV to other games yet when it comes to parsing we are quick to site our negative experiences in other games as a reason to not have them.