"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[linayar]

I just want to respond to this part specifically without trying to take anything away from the overall point of the post.

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

Once again, I'll just say that toxic people not being toxic is irrelevant.

This goes to an increasingly common phenomenon that I've been seeing lately where if someone says something positive about FFXIV's community, someone else eventually seems to want to say that the community is actually filled with toxic people who are just not toxic because of either the lower failure rate and lack of need to communicate or because of fearing enforcement of the rules and the possibility of being banned.

To that, I would say that the reason is irrelevant. If they're not being toxic, then they're not being toxic regardless if their nature is wanting to be toxic deep inside.

Another thing is that people don't seem to realize that passive aggressive behavior, unless very subtly done, is still toxic behavior, and in fact can go against the prohibition on nuisance behavior, specifically on obstruction of play. So that is subject to report as well.

So while the reality is that toxicity (whether direct or via more serious passive aggressive behavior) still appears in this game, it's also true that some of it has been negated either by the lack of difficulty of the main content or by the enforcement of the rules.

Whether that means it has successfully created a better environment would differ from player to player, but certainly it would support people who speak positively about the community.

[Penthea]

I just want to respond to this part specifically without trying to take anything away from the overall point of the post.

Once again, I'll just say that toxic people not being toxic is irrelevant.

This goes to an increasingly common phenomenon that I've been seeing lately where if someone says something positive about FFXIV's community, someone else eventually seems to want to say that the community is actually filled with toxic people who are just not toxic because of either the lower failure rate and lack of need to communicate or because of fearing enforcement of the rules and the possibility of being banned.

I actually think this game's community is great. There are of course some bad eggs but this is impossible to entirely avoid. What I wanted to do is dispel this idea that raiding is where so many of these unpleasant people go to. It's not, there's no special content that has more meanspirited people than others. There are only situations where a person's true nature is easier to see.

Another thing is that people don't seem to realize that passive aggressive behavior, unless very subtly done, is still toxic behavior, and in fact can go against the prohibition on nuisance behavior, specifically on obstruction of play. So that is subject to report as well.

I completely agree with this. A lot of toxicity is hidden under layers of deception. I personally find the worst people are those who choose to engage in their awful activities through more subtle means. It's more difficult to catch them in the act, but the damage they can do can be very high. Someone who is openly very horrible is easy to spot and therefore easier to avoid.

Whether that means it has successfully created a better environment would differ from player to player, but certainly it would support people who speak positively about the community.

I have said many times, though not in this thread, that one of the main reasons why WoW's community, especially its high-end pve section, doesn't have a very good reputation is because Blizzard's approach to that game nurtures an environment where many people feel that being elitist is the best path to success. Of course not everyone is like this, and I would go as far as to say the majority aren't, however enough are that the high-end pve community is widely known for not being friendly. Because Blizzard push the raiding scene so much, often at the cost at the state of the rest of the game, they're sending a message that high-end pve is the only content worth doing. And some people process this as "well if you can't do it then you're just a worthless pleb".

SE cater to their multifaceted audience a lot better by pushing the idea that there are many valid avenues of personal progress. Which means players are less likely to look down on those who do not engage in their favoured content because SE very clearly acknowledges the merits of enjoying many different approaches to the game. Raiders and non-raiders do mix in WoW, but no where near the scale as to how they do in FFXIV. The divide between these two groups is a lot smaller in FFXIV because there are other activities they enjoy that they have in common. Which then results in a healthier community overall.

Of course though another thing is how Blizzard and SE handle poor behaviour. It's not a secret that SE are far more strict on what they view to be good behaviour. Furthermore because SE are often unclear as to exactly what poor behaviour is, some people abstain from saying things they would say in other games out of the fear of getting reported. Some may say this is a good thing, but I personally think it's an issue. Sometimes a player is actually doing something wrong. Not everyone who points this out is a bad person, often they're just trying to help the group have an easier time. I don't think it's a good thing for players to not comment on something that could actually help the party out of fear that someone would take it the wrong way and then report them. I am fine with SE being more strict than Blizzard, but I'm not fine with how ambiguous the line between good and bad behaviour is. But this is another topic of conversation that is drawing away from the actual topic of this thread.

[WoW]

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt.

I doubt that. I still get "bad players" in PF.

[RocciaSolida]

half of OP's post is made up nonsense to berate a certain type of """"hardcore"""" players, never in my 6k+ hours I've seen a person yelling at sprout or a non-99% player

[Awha]

I don't think it's a heresy to anyone. There's a reason that they've banned some streamers using parsers for calling out other people and being toxic.

Being able to clear dungeons ought to be enough. But this forum already has many people who immediately shoot down ideas because "this might ruin the balance and nobody wants to have someone in their party with slightly less job efficiency". That degree of hyperfocus on efficiency, any everything outside of it being limited to limit jobs, seems obsessive. Every job has always been able to clear all dungeons. And a hyperfocus on efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, at the cost of anything that might bring diversity to play. Seems like an unhealthy fixation. Not to mention people not being accommodating to new players. You don't have to be a sprout to be new. People who rushed through the MSQ are still sprouts in a sense, even if the game doesn't call them sprouts.

There are people out there who will downright tell people that they don't deserve to play Final Fantasy XIV because of a mistake they made. And that's not healthy for any game, let alone a Final Fantasy game.

So more or less you are saying assholes will be assholes? That has nothing to do with FFXIV in general that is just a product of some people just not being nice.

This may be an RPG but it is an MMO first, which means you are going to run into other people, and people are under no obligation to like one another. Run into an asshole ignore them and move on. Cause end of the day they do not care about your feelings or anything you are going through, so you are wasting your time letting what they say get to you. To them you are irrelevant, and tbh they should also be irrelevant to you.

[LittleImp]

Never get yelled at or tutted over any kind of parse.

The funniest thing to me is that I've been parse shamed exactly one time after 5 years of pug raiding, and it wasn't even in a raid setting. I disagreed with someone in the Novice Network and they put my logs on blast, in the novice network.

Most people that complain about constantly running into elitism / toxicity are just emotionally unstable and paranoid about extremely mundane interactions. I've known many people over the years that read negativity into pretty much every interaction and constantly shop for things to be outraged over, assuming the worst and reading completely fictional meaning into peoples words. There's a very high correlation between MMO addiction and anxiety disorders, and I have zero doubt that this issue is heavily related to that relationship.

[Canadane]

But they the community turns around and says things like if you're not longer a sprout, you don't have room to make mistakes

A little hyperbolic no?

When the mistakes are basic fundamental playing issues, then yes there's a problem.
Having no idea what your skills do, not knowing what AOE colours are bad, not knowing what a stack marker is, having little to no raid awareness at all.
THESE are the mistakes that are less forgiven if you've gotten 71+ levels under your belt.
Things such as not remembering fight specific mechanics or where the command is to use Target Filters or something isn't what people are talking about when they say a non-sprout should know their stuff.

[Brightamethyst]

Having no idea what your skills do, not knowing what AOE colours are bad, not knowing what a stack marker is, having little to no raid awareness at all.
THESE are the mistakes that are less forgiven if you've gotten 71+ levels under your belt.

Exactly. Even the best players don't know what new mechanics do the first time they happen (though often you can guess.) When people complain it's usually about the old, universal mechanics. Stack markers, not standing in front of giant glowing lasers, etc. If someone is level 80 and still can't manage that, it's on the player, not the game.

[Ralph2449]

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

Exactly the same argument elitists in WoW use to defend their elitist attitude when it comes to mythic raiding not only confusing the average casual by making them think mythic is some ultra l33t hard content but pushing people away from said content cuz they love to exxagerate its difficulty so they can tell themselves they did something great while they literally just beat a scripted puppet.

Neither WoW mythic, nor savage nor even ultimates are tuned in such a way that require this extremely good coordination and rotation some elitists tout, it is literally just harder heroic which requires more effort than heroic, that's it, the room for error is still decently big, simply smaller than heroic.

I remember mythic raiders like Preach kept saying how they are such nice people and mythic raiders arent toxic elitists, they are just a bunch of normal people having fun and being friendly, nothing elitists there, then he goes around supporting stuff like "you gotta be trolling to not play X meta", "Why would you ever play the non meta spec of your class, it is expected you switch to your class' meta spec" because the truth is they dont see their elitism because they are surrounded by other tryhard elitists who do exactly what they demand aka metaslaves, simming for the best options, unironically changing builds every boss, most mythic guilds dont really tolerate non elitists non metaslaves which is why Preach lives in his own bubble(The funny thing is when the non metaslave is doing better than than the elitist metaslaves in the real encounter, that is always funny to see and ended up shutting up many of my whiners "omg this person doesnt play meta")

Put Preach, the pretend good guy in a group that doesnt play meta specs and secretly open his mic and let's see what """nice comments""" the fun and friendly person says, his videos with fin where he pugs are already full of such elitist comments and insults towards average players who arent metaslaves and dont do what they demand.

[linayar]

I personally find the worst people are those who choose to engage in their awful activities through more subtle means. It's more difficult to catch them in the act, but the damage they can do can be very high. Someone who is openly very horrible is easy to spot and therefore easier to avoid.

I find it's usually the opposite. For example, recently, "GCBTW" was mentioned in the forum. Someone who doesn't know what that means wouldn't be affected by someone else typing that in chat.

On the other hand, someone who is being openly horrible would have an immediate and clear effect on the target of the action, so avoidance is usually not an option, while people trying to be subtle more often than not can be ignored for the most part.