"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[Penthea]

There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

Um no, it's because its raid content is quite small compared to its main competitor, WoW. FFXIV only has a handful of bosses per tier while WoW usually has 9 - 13 bosses. And I can tell you WoW has plenty of long fights too that also require memorisation and consistent good performance for success, so those aspects clearly do not negatively affect the fame of a raiding scene. Blizzard really push the spotlight onto their raid content whereas SE focus more on the story content, and these affect what the games are known for. They're in the same genre but they highlight different types of content. Simple as that. As for getting yelled at, that's a player generated issue. Not a game generated issue.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

Savage can be a wonderful experience but it takes effort to get into that sort of environment. Being with like-minded people is one of the major keys to success and finding that can be difficult because not everyone has the same idea as to what it means to be in a good team, and when you pug you are highly likely to meet people who have different standards to you. If you want to avoid toxicity then make your own team or join one that has similar goals to you. As far as personalities go pugging is lottery, and as we know lottery often doesn't have good odds.

[LariaKirin]

Look this nice community everyone praises FF14 stops at the party finder for Savage fights and getting this harmonious static group concept that was developed when this MMO was 7/8 of the way to being dead over 7 years ago is not my idea of fun. There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt. There is a reason Delubrum Savage was dead content within a week and they had to change the rules for how to queue for it and it is not because the content was boring.

The easiest way to fix all of this for Square Enix would be to give HEAVY incentives for FC's to form into more coordinated raiding groups with bigger Savage raids of 16+ people. That alone would kill this static clique stuff you see and force people to organize into groups that see each other more often then once every content patch cycle.

If you find yourself constantly having a bad experience in Savage, perhaps you should look at the common denominator. You are in complete control over the choice of people you raid with and if a group does not satisfy you, all you need to do is find a new one.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want, but people are people and FFXIV does not have special people. No amount of boasting about the shallow appearance of the GCBTW is going to change the fact that behind that nice exterior lies a completely broken permanent warning system. You don't see the level of so-called "WoW toxicity" because of fear, nothing else. Instead, people have adapted to be passive aggressive or to avoid interaction with strangers completely.

The higher you go up the hardcore ladder, the more freedom people have to be "toxic", because it's not perceived as toxic in the first place. This is what happens in an environment where you don't expect people to crumble and report you at the slightest hint of criticism or for saying "Hi" the wrong way.

FC raiding will make things worse. When a static has drama, it eventually disbands and people go their own way. When a FC static has drama, it spreads like wildfire and starts affecting everything else the FC is doing together. This is an extremely bad idea.

[LisSquid]

It's an mmo. Song as old as time... Play with your friends and FC members. I don't do prog or new content with randoms unless I'm coming to help. Never get yelled at or tutted over any kind of parse. You control your experience, an if you want to curate your play you have been given an abundance of resources to do that.

You're tired of hard carrying sprouts? Don't que randoms or use PF. Tired of sweaty pugs losing it over a slight mistake? Don't que randoms or use PF.

Or, you might find it's not really as wide spread as you'd think. A lot of people join farm parties with only one clear, get asked why they keep dying to the same mechanic, and cry toxicity. Though, I do find most "farm" listing are bait, but that's just me and my own confirmation bias.

[SturmChurro]

It's an mmo. Song as old as time... Play with your friends and FC members.

Yeah, but what if I don't have any friends, nor am interested in making any in FFXIV?

[LisSquid]

Yeah, but what if I don't have any friends, nor am interested in making any in FFXIV?

I'm sure Trusts are coming to EX and Savage soon Please look forward to it.

[SturmChurro]

I'm sure Trusts are coming to EX and Savage soon Please look forward to it.

I've never done a trust in my life though!

[LisSquid]

Look at how sad alphy is!! You go run a trust with him right now!!!!

[EirolOcarrol]

This to me sounds like you didn't take the responses to your subjobs thread very well. For me personally it isn't even about efficiency, as I said in that thread, I just don't like a system that suddenly cordons off part of what I could use without limitations before.

It was just one contributing factor, I assure you, but it was an influence, along with the recent thread about bringing back elemental damage. I won't lie that I was disheartened by several people, not everyone, but many people, saying that because it's inefficient, and doesn't mesh with the metagame, that "no one will want to have someone with sub-optimal skills". And, I think that speaks more poorly of negative cultural MMORPG trends than anything, especially if/when people would be behaving that way in content that isn't Savage or Ultimate.

I'd also like to share that I'm not against this sort of thing, or trying your best. It's good to want to help others. And there's nothing wrong with liking a challenge. I personally am trying to find some practice parties for Deltscape Savage. And have been watching videos about Neo Exdeath repeatedly. I don't suppose it's against the rules for me to solicit a bit of help here, I'd appreciate any help on Crystal Data Center! Mostly because I covet Genji Gear, if I'm honest. I really like the tank weapons. And the Genta Oyoroi of Fending is probably my favourite piece of armor in the game, especially for tanks. And Genji gear basically being a dyeable exclusive version of Genta gear, it has essentially become my glamour Endgame, as someone who wants to look like a Samurai tank. And I'm willing to do what it takes to make that a reality, including asking my friends to help me out, watching and studying videos repeatedly, and trying my absolute best to clear it and hold my own.

But this is a special use case scenario, for a niche glamour want. It's completely optional content, and old one at that, and doesn't fit the use case of every player. Not everyone has, and will, want to do this. And most content isn't like this. Even then, while I need to be able to say this from personal experience, from others, I've been told dps checks are fairly lenient. Plus, Savage can be done unsynced. Meaning in this case, learning to do things like deal with the Black Wound and White Wound mechanics should be more important than having a perfectly efficient dps.

But even if that is not the case, it is niche content, and perfection shouldn't be expected outside of Savage, Extreme, Unreal, or Ultimate, if even that.

[Penthea]

FC raiding will make things worse. When a static has drama, it eventually disbands and people go their own way. When a FC static has drama, it spreads like wildfire and starts affecting everything else the FC is doing together. This is an extremely bad idea.

Speaking from personal experience in WoW when guild drama gets out of control due to a raid issue it's often because the leadership messed up somewhere:

1: There is one set of rules for the leadership's friends, and another for everyone else. These can be rules about behaviour or combat performance, or even both.

2: The leadership and the raiders heavily associate with one another and mostly ignore everyone else, which then creates a divide within the community and that leads to some raiders feeling superior while those on the other side of the fence can end up feeling resentment.

The above two are the issues I have seen happen almost every time a guild had raid related drama. It was quite rare for a big issue to happen that wasn't connected to someone in leadership messing up in a big way.

Personally if the above happens then the fc/guild deserves to fall apart. The effects of bad leadership will show its ugly head sooner or later with or without raiding. It just so happens the pressure that comes with raiding can make it appear sooner, which can make people mistake raiding to be the issue and not the leadership itself.

FC based raiding can work and it can be great. My own team is fc based. Though in the beginning it was difficult to fill spots we have gotten to the point in which we can often recruit for our raid team from just within our fc. This is a good thing because we know the person already so we know we're not going to run into problems like a bad attitude or poor performance. So while having a fc based raid team does take more care to maintain than a non-fc based team, the upside is we already have a pool of candidates we know who are a good fit before we even start looking for a replacement.

However even though my raid team is fc based I am completely against making raiding an exclusively fc based activity because I think people should have the freedom to make their teams however they want without having to leave their fc.

I think it's great that players have more choice in the sort of teams they can join instead of being pigeonholed into only one path to find a team. I raided in WoW and because raiding there is mostly guild based it always meant that if I wanted to join a new team I had to leave the guild. It was difficult because sometimes I was happy with the raid team but I was not happy in the guild itself, or the reverse. I often found myself enduring one thing to keep the other. It was incredibly difficult to find a guild that was great both during and outside raids. As it is now in FFXIV players are not constantly forced to choose between a community they love and a good raid team. And it should stay that way.

[ReynTime]

The effort we ask of non sprouts is no different than the effort the offline Final Fantasy games demand, and everyone knows mainline FF games are known to be entry level in terms of difficulty.

XIV is significantly less punishing than any of the other fifteen entries. And because it has such a strong focus on the instanced content for the meat of its combat content, it leads into countless players getting used to the idea that they don't have to learn much at all since they will end up carried into victory, intentionally or not.
And thanks to this, players who would like to play with people who actually care to put minimum effort into the combat, and I'm not talking about savage, end up dealing with the problem SE and the game's design fails to address.