"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

[Puremallace]

What if I told you that you can do Savage raiding in FFXIV without getting yelled at?
Make no mistake: I dont want to convince anyone to raid who isnt intrested in it, but I dont think its a fair representation of raiding as whole what you're describing here... I wont doubt that there are statics out there like that - but its very possible to find a more casual raidgroup or from one consisting of friends or more like minded people (the kind that doesnt like to yell or get yelled at).

You do you, of course... but personally I'm enjoying yell-free raiding with friends for over 4 years now. We're far, far from making any world first lists, but we're having lots of fun - and no yelling.

Look this nice community everyone praises FF14 stops at the party finder for Savage fights and getting this harmonious static group concept that was developed when this MMO was 7/8 of the way to being dead over 7 years ago is not my idea of fun. There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt. There is a reason Delubrum Savage was dead content within a week and they had to change the rules for how to queue for it and it is not because the content was boring.

The easiest way to fix all of this for Square Enix would be to give HEAVY incentives for FC's to form into more coordinated raiding groups with bigger Savage raids of 16+ people. That alone would kill this static clique stuff you see and force people to organize into groups that see each other more often then once every content patch cycle.

[Penthea]

There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

Um no, it's because its raid content is quite small compared to its main competitor, WoW. FFXIV only has a handful of bosses per tier while WoW usually has 9 - 13 bosses. And I can tell you WoW has plenty of long fights too that also require memorisation and consistent good performance for success, so those aspects clearly do not negatively affect the fame of a raiding scene. Blizzard really push the spotlight onto their raid content whereas SE focus more on the story content, and these affect what the games are known for. They're in the same genre but they highlight different types of content. Simple as that. As for getting yelled at, that's a player generated issue. Not a game generated issue.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

Savage can be a wonderful experience but it takes effort to get into that sort of environment. Being with like-minded people is one of the major keys to success and finding that can be difficult because not everyone has the same idea as to what it means to be in a good team, and when you pug you are highly likely to meet people who have different standards to you. If you want to avoid toxicity then make your own team or join one that has similar goals to you. As far as personalities go pugging is lottery, and as we know lottery often doesn't have good odds.

[linayar]

I just want to respond to this part specifically without trying to take anything away from the overall point of the post.

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

Once again, I'll just say that toxic people not being toxic is irrelevant.

This goes to an increasingly common phenomenon that I've been seeing lately where if someone says something positive about FFXIV's community, someone else eventually seems to want to say that the community is actually filled with toxic people who are just not toxic because of either the lower failure rate and lack of need to communicate or because of fearing enforcement of the rules and the possibility of being banned.

To that, I would say that the reason is irrelevant. If they're not being toxic, then they're not being toxic regardless if their nature is wanting to be toxic deep inside.

Another thing is that people don't seem to realize that passive aggressive behavior, unless very subtly done, is still toxic behavior, and in fact can go against the prohibition on nuisance behavior, specifically on obstruction of play. So that is subject to report as well.

So while the reality is that toxicity (whether direct or via more serious passive aggressive behavior) still appears in this game, it's also true that some of it has been negated either by the lack of difficulty of the main content or by the enforcement of the rules.

Whether that means it has successfully created a better environment would differ from player to player, but certainly it would support people who speak positively about the community.

[Penthea]

I just want to respond to this part specifically without trying to take anything away from the overall point of the post.

Once again, I'll just say that toxic people not being toxic is irrelevant.

This goes to an increasingly common phenomenon that I've been seeing lately where if someone says something positive about FFXIV's community, someone else eventually seems to want to say that the community is actually filled with toxic people who are just not toxic because of either the lower failure rate and lack of need to communicate or because of fearing enforcement of the rules and the possibility of being banned.

I actually think this game's community is great. There are of course some bad eggs but this is impossible to entirely avoid. What I wanted to do is dispel this idea that raiding is where so many of these unpleasant people go to. It's not, there's no special content that has more meanspirited people than others. There are only situations where a person's true nature is easier to see.

Another thing is that people don't seem to realize that passive aggressive behavior, unless very subtly done, is still toxic behavior, and in fact can go against the prohibition on nuisance behavior, specifically on obstruction of play. So that is subject to report as well.

I completely agree with this. A lot of toxicity is hidden under layers of deception. I personally find the worst people are those who choose to engage in their awful activities through more subtle means. It's more difficult to catch them in the act, but the damage they can do can be very high. Someone who is openly very horrible is easy to spot and therefore easier to avoid.

Whether that means it has successfully created a better environment would differ from player to player, but certainly it would support people who speak positively about the community.

I have said many times, though not in this thread, that one of the main reasons why WoW's community, especially its high-end pve section, doesn't have a very good reputation is because Blizzard's approach to that game nurtures an environment where many people feel that being elitist is the best path to success. Of course not everyone is like this, and I would go as far as to say the majority aren't, however enough are that the high-end pve community is widely known for not being friendly. Because Blizzard push the raiding scene so much, often at the cost at the state of the rest of the game, they're sending a message that high-end pve is the only content worth doing. And some people process this as "well if you can't do it then you're just a worthless pleb".

SE cater to their multifaceted audience a lot better by pushing the idea that there are many valid avenues of personal progress. Which means players are less likely to look down on those who do not engage in their favoured content because SE very clearly acknowledges the merits of enjoying many different approaches to the game. Raiders and non-raiders do mix in WoW, but no where near the scale as to how they do in FFXIV. The divide between these two groups is a lot smaller in FFXIV because there are other activities they enjoy that they have in common. Which then results in a healthier community overall.

Of course though another thing is how Blizzard and SE handle poor behaviour. It's not a secret that SE are far more strict on what they view to be good behaviour. Furthermore because SE are often unclear as to exactly what poor behaviour is, some people abstain from saying things they would say in other games out of the fear of getting reported. Some may say this is a good thing, but I personally think it's an issue. Sometimes a player is actually doing something wrong. Not everyone who points this out is a bad person, often they're just trying to help the group have an easier time. I don't think it's a good thing for players to not comment on something that could actually help the party out of fear that someone would take it the wrong way and then report them. I am fine with SE being more strict than Blizzard, but I'm not fine with how ambiguous the line between good and bad behaviour is. But this is another topic of conversation that is drawing away from the actual topic of this thread.

[linayar]

I personally find the worst people are those who choose to engage in their awful activities through more subtle means. It's more difficult to catch them in the act, but the damage they can do can be very high. Someone who is openly very horrible is easy to spot and therefore easier to avoid.

I find it's usually the opposite. For example, recently, "GCBTW" was mentioned in the forum. Someone who doesn't know what that means wouldn't be affected by someone else typing that in chat.

On the other hand, someone who is being openly horrible would have an immediate and clear effect on the target of the action, so avoidance is usually not an option, while people trying to be subtle more often than not can be ignored for the most part.

[Ralph2449]

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

Exactly the same argument elitists in WoW use to defend their elitist attitude when it comes to mythic raiding not only confusing the average casual by making them think mythic is some ultra l33t hard content but pushing people away from said content cuz they love to exxagerate its difficulty so they can tell themselves they did something great while they literally just beat a scripted puppet.

Neither WoW mythic, nor savage nor even ultimates are tuned in such a way that require this extremely good coordination and rotation some elitists tout, it is literally just harder heroic which requires more effort than heroic, that's it, the room for error is still decently big, simply smaller than heroic.

I remember mythic raiders like Preach kept saying how they are such nice people and mythic raiders arent toxic elitists, they are just a bunch of normal people having fun and being friendly, nothing elitists there, then he goes around supporting stuff like "you gotta be trolling to not play X meta", "Why would you ever play the non meta spec of your class, it is expected you switch to your class' meta spec" because the truth is they dont see their elitism because they are surrounded by other tryhard elitists who do exactly what they demand aka metaslaves, simming for the best options, unironically changing builds every boss, most mythic guilds dont really tolerate non elitists non metaslaves which is why Preach lives in his own bubble(The funny thing is when the non metaslave is doing better than than the elitist metaslaves in the real encounter, that is always funny to see and ended up shutting up many of my whiners "omg this person doesnt play meta")

Put Preach, the pretend good guy in a group that doesnt play meta specs and secretly open his mic and let's see what """nice comments""" the fun and friendly person says, his videos with fin where he pugs are already full of such elitist comments and insults towards average players who arent metaslaves and dont do what they demand.

[WoW]

Neither WoW mythic, nor savage nor even ultimates are tuned in such a way that require this extremely good coordination and rotation some elitists tout, it is literally just harder heroic which requires more effort than heroic, that's it, the room for error is still decently big, simply smaller than heroic.

Finally someone said it. So for anyone saying savage or ultimate are hard, all I have to say is that you're a bad player. Git gud or uninstall.

[strawberrycake]

Finally someone said it. So for anyone saying savage or ultimate are hard, all I have to say is that you're a bad player. Git gud or uninstall.

Yeah, Its all just a time sink really, learn the mechs by doing the fight over and over again, the hard part is always the time.

[LariaKirin]

Look this nice community everyone praises FF14 stops at the party finder for Savage fights and getting this harmonious static group concept that was developed when this MMO was 7/8 of the way to being dead over 7 years ago is not my idea of fun. There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt. There is a reason Delubrum Savage was dead content within a week and they had to change the rules for how to queue for it and it is not because the content was boring.

The easiest way to fix all of this for Square Enix would be to give HEAVY incentives for FC's to form into more coordinated raiding groups with bigger Savage raids of 16+ people. That alone would kill this static clique stuff you see and force people to organize into groups that see each other more often then once every content patch cycle.

If you find yourself constantly having a bad experience in Savage, perhaps you should look at the common denominator. You are in complete control over the choice of people you raid with and if a group does not satisfy you, all you need to do is find a new one.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want, but people are people and FFXIV does not have special people. No amount of boasting about the shallow appearance of the GCBTW is going to change the fact that behind that nice exterior lies a completely broken permanent warning system. You don't see the level of so-called "WoW toxicity" because of fear, nothing else. Instead, people have adapted to be passive aggressive or to avoid interaction with strangers completely.

The higher you go up the hardcore ladder, the more freedom people have to be "toxic", because it's not perceived as toxic in the first place. This is what happens in an environment where you don't expect people to crumble and report you at the slightest hint of criticism or for saying "Hi" the wrong way.

FC raiding will make things worse. When a static has drama, it eventually disbands and people go their own way. When a FC static has drama, it spreads like wildfire and starts affecting everything else the FC is doing together. This is an extremely bad idea.

[Penthea]

FC raiding will make things worse. When a static has drama, it eventually disbands and people go their own way. When a FC static has drama, it spreads like wildfire and starts affecting everything else the FC is doing together. This is an extremely bad idea.

Speaking from personal experience in WoW when guild drama gets out of control due to a raid issue it's often because the leadership messed up somewhere:

1: There is one set of rules for the leadership's friends, and another for everyone else. These can be rules about behaviour or combat performance, or even both.

2: The leadership and the raiders heavily associate with one another and mostly ignore everyone else, which then creates a divide within the community and that leads to some raiders feeling superior while those on the other side of the fence can end up feeling resentment.

The above two are the issues I have seen happen almost every time a guild had raid related drama. It was quite rare for a big issue to happen that wasn't connected to someone in leadership messing up in a big way.

Personally if the above happens then the fc/guild deserves to fall apart. The effects of bad leadership will show its ugly head sooner or later with or without raiding. It just so happens the pressure that comes with raiding can make it appear sooner, which can make people mistake raiding to be the issue and not the leadership itself.

FC based raiding can work and it can be great. My own team is fc based. Though in the beginning it was difficult to fill spots we have gotten to the point in which we can often recruit for our raid team from just within our fc. This is a good thing because we know the person already so we know we're not going to run into problems like a bad attitude or poor performance. So while having a fc based raid team does take more care to maintain than a non-fc based team, the upside is we already have a pool of candidates we know who are a good fit before we even start looking for a replacement.

However even though my raid team is fc based I am completely against making raiding an exclusively fc based activity because I think people should have the freedom to make their teams however they want without having to leave their fc.

I think it's great that players have more choice in the sort of teams they can join instead of being pigeonholed into only one path to find a team. I raided in WoW and because raiding there is mostly guild based it always meant that if I wanted to join a new team I had to leave the guild. It was difficult because sometimes I was happy with the raid team but I was not happy in the guild itself, or the reverse. I often found myself enduring one thing to keep the other. It was incredibly difficult to find a guild that was great both during and outside raids. As it is now in FFXIV players are not constantly forced to choose between a community they love and a good raid team. And it should stay that way.