The trust system is great, I hope it gets expanded

[Darkmoonrise]

Simple, at some point intelligent [...]
Sorry but again I fail to understand your point. Your example is like saying that the peak speed of a car is bigger than the one of a bike. To that I agree but I don't see the relation of this with the root problem. In your original statement, in which mouth did you put this sentence "Oh i am just having fun, [...], just let me have fun". And don't use the argument that I'm not intelligent... it will be pathetic.

I dont have an issue if I am personally viewed negatively
The problem is not that you are seen negatively, the problem is that by acting like that, you are a part of the problem. You do not fight extremism with extremism. This only leads to more extremism.

no healthy individual gets mad and annoyed by accessibility
Accessibility is not a problem. Same reward for more accessible content is. Or harassing people because they don't want or are not able to beat none accessible content is.

Well here's the problem, elitist tryhards take pride in beating high end group content and delude themselves they are great, skilled and elite players because they beat the encounter,
But... they are great and skilled to beat hard content. That's why it's called hard content, because you need skill to beat it and not everybody can do it. This is exactly why there is exclusive loot, like mounts, that only drop for this very type of content, to brag about it. And therefore, this should not drop if you make this content more accessible. If you harass or lower other people because you're doing better than them, you need to be punished, I agree with that. But bragging about being able to beat hard content is totally ok.

To conclude, let me explain to you how I see players here and how I see you.

Here are how I categories players:
(0) players who want all the loot but don't want to put effort in it.
(1) players who don't carry their weight (underperform massively) and don't care about it.
(2) players who don't carry their weight and improve themself. This is just a temporary group.
(3) players who carry their weight (normal average people, I'm in this group) From here you can down ex and savage.
(4) players who carry more than their weight (performing) and don't care about it. From here you can down ultimate.
(5) players who carry more than their weight and blame people who don't do the same.

For me (0), (1) and (5) are not ok and they should be punished. Now this is how I see you: If I'm very optimistic, I'd say that you try to fight against (5). To do so, your plane is to
1. Spoil them from their exclusive reward by giving them to everyone by easing all the challenges.
2. Because (5) exist you want to force people to accept (0) and (1) to counterbalance, I suppose.

But this strategy is failing. Let me explain you why.
* You have absolutely no impact on (0), (1) and (5), because, by definition, they don't care about others. They will exist whatever effort or not you put in to suppress them.
* You alienate (2) by depriving them from their potential progression success.
* You alienate (3) because they know that (0), (1) should not be allowed.
* You alienate (4) because, same than (3), and you mix them with (5) even thou they did nothing wrong.
* And, last but not least, and this is the main problem that all white knights have: they think the world need their protection and their "intelligence", as you so proudly mentioned it, which is wrong. The vast majority of people know what they want, how to get it and how to defend themselves. The other, which indeed, need some help, are not profiting from your action. If you want to help them, you need to do it case by case, by actually helping them, not by fighting, what you suppose, are their enemies. Talk to them, know them, support them and advise them, so they can resolve their problem by themselves. There is nothing worse than resolving people's problem for them.

This is why you fail at your task, why almost everybody is against you and why, at the end, you will be silenced by people in charge. Because you're harassing people, even if you think it is justified. Because you've become what you were fighting. And all the efforts you put in this fight will be obliterate. And you will suffer about it and will join either (0) or (5). And at this point you will understand why those groups exist and why your actions were useless. But it will be too late and the redemption road will be long and painful.

[WoW]

(0) players who want all the loot but don't want to put effort in it.
(1) players who don't carry their weight (underperform massively) and don't care about it.

[ICountFrom0]

(3) players who carry their weight (normal average people, I'm in this group) From here you can down ex and savage.

I'll just disagree here.

You can make a mistake or two while doing your job properly and still do EX. This isn't good enough for savage.

Savage is the point where you can't make deadly mistakes anymore, and you need to carry your weight.

EX is the point where you can make a very few mistakes, and you need to carry your weight.

I can do ex, but I can't do savage. I'd like to fix that, so In a way I'm still #2...

[KDSilver]

I'll just disagree here.

You can make a mistake or two while doing your job properly and still do EX. This isn't good enough for savage.

Savage is the point where you can't make deadly mistakes anymore, and you need to carry your weight.

EX is the point where you can make a very few mistakes, and you need to carry your weight.

I can do ex, but I can't do savage. I'd like to fix that, so In a way I'm still #2...

You can die in savage either.
It just depends when.

If its during a big downtime it doesn't matter. It's only when a mechanic requires 8 people that you have to be alive or it can snowball into a wipe.
But you still can make mistake, the windows is just more tight.

[Ralph2449]

But you still can make mistake, the windows is just more tight.

This, dont let people who hype up and inflate high end group content as somekind of ultra l33t impossibly hard task that requires perfection fool you, it is merely just harder than the previous difficulty and still has a decent room for error, the room for error simply gets reduced the higher you go but it is still there and that even includes ultimate, so if you feel like trying you absolutely can, it is not beyond you, tis a video game after all

[ItMe]

the room for error simply gets reduced the higher you go but it is still there and that even includes ultimate, so if you feel like trying you absolutely can, it is not beyond you, tis a video game after all

Hahaha I'll never forget watching some of the worlds first TEA clears and seeing DoTs falling off and the occasional death and people still clearing it.

[WoW]

You can die in savage either.

And you can not have a single death and still die to enrage. It all boils down to one thing, is your group pushing more than the minimum DPS or not? I've had a pug group of all 530 for E12s door boss and we died to friggen 2% enrage despite having 0 deaths. How to fix something like this? disband or replace the baddies. Simple as that. ilvl can't fix bad players.

[ICountFrom0]

You can die in savage either.
It just depends when.

If its during a big downtime it doesn't matter. It's only when a mechanic requires 8 people that you have to be alive or it can snowball into a wipe.
But you still can make mistake, the windows is just more tight.

And yet, you make my point for me. Maybe 3 is a spectrum, but everybody has a cap that is the best they will ever be.

Not everybody can get a perfect clear of TouHou 15. It's the exact same techniques needed to pass #7, you just have to be better at them.

Ex has very little that isn't somewhere in regular. Savage might have one new thing in each, but it's not impossible to learn it. Ultimate.... *shrug* how would I know?

I can learn the mechanic needed in a given savage, but I'm just not consistantly good enough to pass them. I also feel like I hit my cap and I'm just not going to get better.

[Ralph2449]

but I don't see the relation of this with the root problem.

In the pvp example I gave it should be obvious, person deludes themselves that their way of playing is acceptable even if it literally is at the expense of others and also often believes they are deserving of their victories, now if that person was capable of admitting that all these victories are false, hollow, meaningless that would also mean they cannot delude themselves they are a good player, skilled, capable and cant boost their self worth that way, thus instead they choose to say its is just "fun" and not bother analyzing further because that allows the person to boost their self worth which is their true goal, just like the person to defends something as unhealthy as bragging rights, again words are meaningless, actions are what reveal a person's true goals.

You do not fight extremism with extremism. This only leads to more extremism.

And what I say is absolutely not extreme, what I am saying is bragging rights are unhealthy and attract insecure people and that shouldnt happen, elitists delude themselves by inflating their achievements and calling others incapable, bad, low skilled etc to inflate their self worth further while keep inventing imaginary bad players to justify their position and that is yet another thing that shouldnt happen, I also say that people should have access to content and rewards they like and shouldnt be forced to do something they dont because the reward is locked behind it therefore there should be multiple ways to get said rewards that work for both casual and hardcore players.

If that is seen as extreme then I would say the problem is you.

Accessibility is not a problem. Same reward for more accessible content is. Or harassing people because they don't want or are not able to beat none accessible content is.

Same thing, the fact that letting people access rewards they like scared elitists and makes them foam at anyone suggesting that is my proof as to how unhealthy they are because their ego is so attached to digital pixels they cant handle someone else getting the same digital pixels because they like them, not because of bragging rights"

This is exactly why there is exclusive loot, like mounts, that only drop for this very type of content, to brag about it
bragging about being able to beat hard content is totally ok.

Ah yes such a good and healthy thing, "bragging rights", I certainly have said that sometimes earlier in this forum but if someone is truly healthy and knows they are decent and a good player they dont need the game to confirm it via achievements and exclusive loot, that exists only for the insecure and unhealthy(And sadly the gaming sphere has so many of both) to get slowly addicted to the feeling that they """"achieved""" something hence why i keep saying it is their self worth depending on the game that is turning them toxic because no healthy person ever puts their self worth on something as basic as a video game. So no, anyone who unironically supports the idea of exclusive rewards and bragging rights is not healthy and both of those should have been removed ages ago, but hey, manipulative psychological marketing aka as marketing is still legal so the species is still pretty deep in the dark ages so I cant expect much.

But... they are great and skilled to beat hard content

How are they skilled exactly? You chose to focus completely on the social aspect of finding groups and statics as well as things you have no control over such as the performance of others and you ignored the part of individual performance which is the same in a solo trust so now you cant just run all the way back and pretend individual skill is relevant.
You either admit that individual skill is what matters thus beating said challenge in a trust makes you equally skilled and deserving of equal prestige(In the eyes of elitists at least, not healthy people) or you argue that the real skill is the social aspects and things outside of your control such as the performance of others which cant be found in a solo trust scenario.

not everybody can do it

And that is one of the many lies elitists tell themselves to inflate their achievement, they unironically say something as extremely basic as SCRIPTED, PREDICTABLE, TELEGRAPHED content with a ton of giant assistant signs is something that "not everyone can do" while the truth is even if you put a clueless kid in such a """"challenge"""" they will beat it after a while, they only people that you could say cant do it would be people with extreme levels of disability, so that argument is a pure delusion that only exists to inflate the elitist achievement, see my signature for that.

Unless you want to go all the way back and argue that this isnt about individual skill rather it is about being social and finding people and things completely out of your control like other people's mistakes or performance which in that case many people either dont have the time or simply dont want to have to deal with the drama that is people or having to jump from guild to guild because they either died, stopped caring about X or are simply toxic, anyone who has done that in the past knows how tiring this process can be yet elitists seem to love the idea of forcing people through it because it is the only way to get the rewards they want, because forcing people to do something they dont like in order to get something they like is such a great and healthy mentality.

(0) players who want all the loot but don't want to put effort in it.

Again a delusion created by elitists I ve seen countless times, not a single person who demands accessibility ever asks for "send me this reward in the mail", they ask for a way, content, grind that would let them get the reward.

The real source of this belief is the idea that your high end group content is so superior and elite that no other way of getting that reward is "worthy" in the eyes of the elite that have already inflated their achievements to the heavens to help with their self esteem issues, again unhealthy and emotional based argument, when one's self worth depends on something being "rare" of course they dont want that something to be available to all, if they were healthy they had 0 issues with it.

And you will suffer about it and will join either (0) or (5)

My, my because of course a person like me couldnt be a 4, I clearly either have to be an extremely bad player demanding free rewards or somekind of elitist, and the fact that you think you are capable of speaking about my future when you clearly fail to grasp many things I point out is a little ironic.


And looks like the person who attempted to turn what I say against me had their post deleted but I will say this, simply look at what I am standing for, and what elitists are standing for.
In WoW because I wanted decent gear(That means mythic) so I was forced to rush and hurry and pug 14-15s on multiple characters as well as fully clear heroic at the minimum since the bfa mythic guild died in the expansion made for absolute tryhards, so i had what you see as "elite" status, my EU account also had the legion mage tower appearances I liked, yet I kept supporting for everyone to have a path for mythic gear through casual and solo means as well as bringing back mage tower appearances for people who werent there and couldnt get them, and just as it is in every game this causes extreme pain to elitists whose ego depends on those special unique rewards that the casual "plebs" cant have, I was completely fine with sharing my """elite rewards""" with the casual players because my ego was not based on said rewards, I dont need rewards to tell me I am good, I want rewards because they look nice or fit me and in terms of gear, because I like gear progression.

So here I am pushing for people to be able to have access to both content and rewards, not because of something as insecure and unhealthy as "bragging rights" but because they merely like that thing, be it content or reward or even concepts such as gear progression.

Now on the other hard elitists are there to keep the barriers, to keep forcing people to do thing they dont like, to withhold cool rewards from others for the sake of their fragile self esteem, to keep pushing people down and calling them incapable, bad, cant improve etc to inflate their own sense of achievement, and love bragging rights(From beating a video game designed from the ground up to be won).

If you feel the latter are on the right, your choice, I ve said what needs to be said.