Positionals

[Raikai]

It's even more frustrating when you outright die because somebody runs into you during a spread AoE mechanic, but that's hardly a reason to remove all spread mechanics.

Making sure DPS can do their jobs comfortably is a big part of what the tank role in mmos is about. They've already been stripped of most of their personal impact and skill expression, there should be more reasons added to position properly in fights, not less. The entire point of trinity system is that every role has to perform in order for others to work right - you can't just remove anything that requires cooperation in a co-op game, just because "other people making mistakes is inconvenient to me". This shouldn't even be taken into consideration honestly.

Yeah, I agree with that point of view. It's just that gets a bit frustrating at some point to play a positionals-based job.

I'm complaining but it's really not the design's fault, but you getting teamed with a tank that just doesn't care about MNK, DRG, etc... I just stopped to run random content with monk altogether because of this frustration.

[IruruCece]

Yeah, I agree with that point of view. It's just that gets a bit frustrating at some point to play a positionals-based job.

I'm complaining but it's really not the design's fault, but you getting teamed with a tank that just doesn't care about MNK, DRG, etc... I just stopped to run random content with monk altogether because of this frustration.

You see, this is where I have a tough time understanding why anyone complained about Monk's positionals prior to the latest patch. We had the ability to ignore positionals for lengthy periods of time thanks to True North and the old Earth's Reply, to the point where SE NERFED those two abilities so that we would engage with positionals MORE.

It has never been very hard to land positionals, full stop. The game provides visual cues that tell us if we're at a target's rear OR their flank, and in optimal situations you're not even moving that far. I'm sorry you've come across some legitimately terrible tank players, but if we adjust everything based on player's ability to mess with someone else, we may as well remove Rescue, Taunt, and Shirk from the game too. Hell, just remove aggro from the game too, and make it so that enemies target tanks first, then DPS, then healers.

If the complaints about positionals are centered around dungeons and large pulls, then honestly they make even less sense. With Shadowbringers, Monks got a full AOE rotation that should be getting spammed like mad if there are at least three targets or more. There is little reason to worry about losing DPS due to missing positionals in the vast majority of content outside of bosses.

If nothing else, I think this says a lot about some very basic problems with FF14's dungeon design: They're theme parks that all inevitable degenerate down to "Pull to the wall, AOE the group, single target the stragglers." I don't think this is actually fixable, though, because that's how the game has been for so long. If they actually made fights leading up to the bosses require light parties to take mechanics like positionals more seriously, I think you'd see players complain that the pace of the dungeons is then too slow/demanding. So, for the game that FF14 actually is, it's up to the boss encounters themselves to justify the full extent of player's abilities, and that currently includes positionals on melee DPS.

And honestly, SE has done a pretty good job at mixing things up there. There are a number of bosses where positionals are barely or straight up not a factor whatsoever due to their sheer size, or because the encounters are designed in a very specific way, for cinematic/gameplay purposes.

At the end of the day, you have to accept that you will miss positionals sometimes, either because you screwed up, or because another player screwed up. And that's fine.

[CKNovel]

At the end of the day, you have to accept that you will miss positionals sometimes, either because you screwed up, or because another player screwed up. And that's fine.

A good answer, but this basically reminds me of Shinryu.
It was a "difficult" content and necessary to the story.

Of course there was no mechanics but it required more than previous trials mechanic wise.

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

[ssunny2008]

And honestly, SE has done a pretty good job at mixing things up there. There are a number of bosses where positionals are barely or straight up not a factor whatsoever due to their sheer size, or because the encounters are designed in a very specific way, for cinematic/gameplay purposes.
[/I]

e.g. E7... 100% uptime for melees, but probably the most boring boss. Nothing is more boring than cuddling in the mid with the group and 123, 456, 123, 456.... No matter which melee you play there. Atleast the last phase brought something more to care about and some kind of movement.

About the "great" dungeons, they could atleast go ways other mmo´s did. Swtor for example hat bonus objectives/missions to do, which opened a secret path right before the endboss to beat an even stronger bonusboss with rare loot for crafting or pets, or even equip with 5 itemlevel more. Even those dungeonbosses had an enrage so you had to care for DPS. You could even use other special objectives when you´d crafter X on level Y to activate droids which help you, etc...
Dungeons here are pretty boring to play and to care there about to positionals is not really needed, unless you care about that 10s of your life. Even the pre 50 dungeons are more exiting with more passes, rooms, chests than any of the expansions. This 2 pack -> boss -> 2 pack -> boss -> 2 pack -> boss really needs to stop. It´s gameplay wise pretty stupid and it doesn´t help anyone to improve. I met enough monks who didn´t care about positionals and as i said something it was like "I don´t care" or "Yeah i know, but i´m pretty new and tired, whatever...".

And tbh... if we talk about monk only, i´m convinced that there are 2 kinds of players anyway. The minority which says from beginning "i´m going to play monk" or the majority, which won´t play monk seriously even without positionals.

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

It´s not "refuse" every time. It´s just no motivation to do better, to become better, whatever. It´s just not worth the time for such players, but they want their loot, no matter how. The great reason why goldsellers are a thing too.
FF14 is still a gear - related casual game. Just saying, healer LB3 ftw!

It´s just easier to complain in a forum than to learn a class or to kill a boss you know?!

[Undeadfire]

A good answer, but this basically reminds me of Shinryu.
It was a "difficult" content and necessary to the story.

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

It really wasn't difficult at all, people simply refused to pay attention to mechanics that took around 8 seconds to set off. You've probably never done "The Steps of Faith" pre-nerf, the fight before entering HW. SE really wanted to put the ball on challenging players starting from that all the way to A8S.

Simplifying the game's mechanics by removing positional skills is a bad idea. If SE were to do that, the uproar would be either just as bad or worse than the dumbing down of Tank and Healer jobs in this expansion. I say that because most of the player base plays DPS jobs.

And yet in the old days, you had to literally do positional for Drg/Mnk just to continue the combo. Flank/Rear failed to be there, you lost combo.

It´s just easier to complain in a forum than to learn a class or to kill a boss you know?!

Truth right there, except majority of the time ignore mentor advice since they're usually clueless.

[currentlemon]

And yet in the old days, you had to literally do positional for Drg/Mnk just to continue the combo. Flank/Rear failed to be there, you lost combo.

Call me crazy, but that sounds fun. I'd love to have something like that return, even if it'd only irk a lot of people.

[Undeadfire]

Call me crazy, but that sounds fun. I'd love to have something like that return, even if it'd only irk a lot of people.

Yeah I don't remember Monk but this was back in 2.0, I am very confident this is how it went, can correct me. I take that back about the losing combo part, only 2 things really did it.

Heavy Thrust (Flank): 15% damage buff plus Potency+ if you flank and you only obtained the buff when flanking.

Chaos Thrust (Rear): Dot plus Potency, you only landed the dot if you used at the rear.

[CKNovel]

Call me crazy, but that sounds fun. I'd love to have something like that return, even if it'd only irk a lot of people.

It used to work when job didn't had gauges.
Now, losing a combo would mean for a SAM to delay the next Midare and too much errors would mean even delay the next Tsubame.

[Raikai]

You see, this is where I have a tough time understanding why anyone complained about Monk's positionals prior to the latest patch. We had the ability to ignore positionals for lengthy periods of time thanks to True North and the old Earth's Reply, to the point where SE NERFED those two abilities so that we would engage with positionals MORE.

Again like I said, is not the design's fault. Positionals is a mechanic that I actually enjoy because keeps some kind of dynamic differently than just pressing buttons in a specific order or condition.

My complaint is about the user: bad tanks that simply do not care about the dpers. And no, True North doesn't help if the tank flips the target right as your finger is landing on the key. I honestly don't know if I'm just unlucky or something, but when it comes to random groups I always end with that kind of tank all the time.

Miss positionals sometimes is fine... Missing them constantly is not, but hey... The only solution to this, I am doing, which is not using Monk in random runs.