Positionals

[ssunny2008]

Gonna outright say... you’re wrong.

I know the threads, but how can i or the tiny % be wrong?

The handful of players here doesn´t representate the whole playerbase and SE probably doesn´t look at fflogs, they don´t even want it to be a thing. But this is the only argument from the players.
SE has their own balancing, logs and thoughts. That they´re pretty much ignore that "issue" for so long should say enough. They´ve their plans and that phys. range are in the spot where they are, seems to be a thing because of the said arguments.

I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".

As i said before, yes, Sam should get a nerf. But overall he brings nothing but dps to the party. And in your example, maybe someone died? Maybe someone failed his rotation? Whatever... It´s possible to kill each boss with the needed itemlevel, but everything have to be nearly perfect. If that´s not the case, a Samurai won´t help you out there. Otherwise, just get better gear.

And you can be a casual and still care for DPS and endgame content. I know a bunch of them, but they´ll probably never beat the last tier boss, just because time / motivation or gameknowledge are missing. But they can press 123 and moving to a marker. Just saying, i know an "hmmmm" samurai who was able to clear E5-7s. She had top gear next to the chest. I outperformed her with ishgardian gear + 2-3 edencore sets and the relic weapon before bodzja arrived with my own Samurai. But yeah, she cleared E5-7s with their static and was top dps there. However this was possible...
She is playing dancer now and guess what? She is 1000x better than before. She dies way less, has an "ok" parse for the beginning and brings tons of buffs to the new 80-90% sam in the static. Already the fact that she fails in 1/10 fights and not like before ~9/10 times with less damage as you would expect from a Sam says enough about phys. range classes and the difficulty scaling.

Yes it´s not the topic here. I could go to any range thread and tell you the same others did there and i did here. The freedom, medigation and groupbuffs from phys. ranges weight high when we talk about balancing.

EDIT: Anything can fk up the damage of casters and melees. Just take OP´s example about the boss aoe. The game puts them way more under pressure than phys. range chars. The current 2000dps difference is more like a "safezone" for them to beat the encounter. Phys. range can do what they want as long as they play the mechanics and their rotation. You don´t have to time anything and you can even prepare for the incoming stuff easily.

[IruruCece]

Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Good players in any job are more valuable than meta jobs are in a vacuum. As long as all the roles are filled, anyone can clear anything provided that they play well. You are probably more useful playing a DNC or BRD in a raid than I would be bringing MNK or SAM because in all likelihood, you're the better player. You play enough to see that higher end content and push that content line. I do not.

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Without something along these lines, you would have a pair of jobs that GREATLY minimize the risks of death thanks to their mobility (especially DNC), while still offering more than enough output to be deemed "useful" by someone who is more worried about their numbers than others are. What then would be the point of taking a melee job into ANY new content, beyond simple preference? And honestly, preference only goes so far. Despite constant complaints about how hard MNK is to play (positionals, greased lightning, idontlikething), the job saw a surprising burst of activity early into ShB when it briefly challenged BLM for top slot. Not many stuck around, I guess.

Melee DPS must place themselves in close proximity to the enemy, regularly unleashing combos efficiently to maintain unique class mechanics, all of which face potential disruption whenever the boss does anything that denies them the ability to attack, or forces them to move away. In addition to this, they have positionals (MNK more than any other) that require moving in a specific way to get the most out of certain attacks OR use shared DPS abilities to negate those positional requirements temporarily. The mixture of limited range, limited mobility, and positionals, combined with fight mechanics, effectively places a lot more stress on the player that is trying to maximize their performance. The reward for doing so is excellent output. Failure either means reduced output, or zero output (death).

You can disagree with this as much as you want. The bottom line, however, is that Ranged DPS can still do the job in any piece of content in the game right now with less mechanical risk to the player compared to Melee DPS. If players chose to play something more demanding, the reward should be greater than for jobs with less of a demand on the player IF they play well. To demand more for less is just being greedy.

[ItMe]

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Haha I remember them giving BRD castbars...
I'm glad they moved away from that. I'd much rather ranged take the hit to DPS than inhibit their play.

[Rymi64]

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

They could always give them cast times again. NGL i kinda miss it but then thats what casters are for . though i would not mind them making a caster that uses like a rifle or something just to give the casters a little different feeling weapon to them. Could even make it so it can auto at a range but their casted skills have lower potency for that reason or even make it a skill where they can auto for a certain amount of time.

[CKNovel]

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Positionnals and casting goes hand in hand, so I'll give in.

That's quite the headhache.
The ranged community is split about the casting debate.

On one hand, you have the BRD job, not designed for casts.
On the other hand, you have MCH that was designed with casts (Ammos, RapidFire...).
Then DNC was strapped onto the ranged role.

I think we're way past the point where adding casts for the whole role can be considered. Adding cast to one or two jobs could be considered but I feel like it would be a mess.
You could have casts on MCH but nothing on BRD.

IMO, the best option there should be to give a variable amount of casts to the jobs.
MCH would have more casts, DNC the least and BRD in-between. I kind of miss casting too, since SB, Machinist feels like "floating around".

Or to add a new type of cast, that does extra damage if you complete the cast. Some sort of "aiming".
Interrupting the cast shots a GCD at 100 potency.
Completing the cast shots a GCD at 110 potency.
For example.

[ssunny2008]

IMO, the best option there should be to give a variable amount of casts to the jobs.
MCH would have more casts, DNC the least and BRD in-between. I kind of miss casting too, since SB, Machinist feels like "floating around".

There is a reason why there are no casts anymore and i personally think it´s good that way. It just doesn´t fit phys. range classes. Maybe 1 cast like Midare for the MCH, but not more.
Instead of going the "easy" way, SE should give those classes a soul if you really want them to compete with others in dps.

- Dancer for example could have limited range and different dances you´ve to remember and play by yourself like ninjutsu. Not just 123 or the same dance with different highlighted buttons. Such dance-moves could have different buffs like "added dot effect, more damage, max. range increase from 8 to 15m", whatever.... such stuff with an internal cooldown, so the player have to adjust with them to the mechanics, skill-problem solved. Of course it´s not that big deal if you get used to it, but it´s something you´ve to remember, you´ve to adjust with the range dance and it fits the class.

- MCH could work with positionals. Not himself, but the robot. Let the robot attack from behind for 5 hits will load his attacks. If it´s done, it´ll grant a 15s damage buff for him, if he attacks the boss from the side. (or other way round). Ofcourse the player needs to have a look at the buff and have to adjust the robot with "from the side, from behind" skills. The robot will stay for a minute and has 45s cooldown or something.

- Sounds pretty dumb, but BRD could actually collect instruments spawning in a 5m radius around him for 10s. If you´ve collected 3 in a special order, you can unleash an soundwave with X damage and one of your menuet/ballad, whatever will be activated. Not just "click the button and enjoy" as it is right now.

Just brainstorming, but anything is better than just cast times. Being "free" fits the jobs well, they just need a soul / something to take care about. But hey, it´s FF14... all cool or variable stuff is getting dumb´d down e.g. astro cards or has a highlighted rotation.

Or to add a new type of cast, that does extra damage if you complete the cast. Some sort of "aiming".

Ppl would just spam it if it´s too powerful or don´t use it when it´s not. And having some sort of PLD rotation or "just another button" is määäh...


For real, SE just needs to stop to make everything too simple. Give us TP, armor/magic penetration and other stuff back, so they can do much more with any class.

[Raikai]

I don't mind positionals as a mechanic, I really think it adds something more engaging, however, It's really frustrating when tanks keep rotating the boss way too much - sometimes, even just a small rotation can make you miss a positional. True North is there, yeah, but it doesn't help you when the tank moves the boss right before you hit your attack.

[Satarn]

I don't mind positionals as a mechanic, I really think it adds something more engaging, however, It's really frustrating when tanks keep rotating the boss way too much - sometimes, even just a small rotation can make you miss a positional. True North is there, yeah, but it doesn't help you when the tank moves the boss right before you hit your attack.

It's even more frustrating when you outright die because somebody runs into you during a spread AoE mechanic, but that's hardly a reason to remove all spread mechanics.

Making sure DPS can do their jobs comfortably is a big part of what the tank role in mmos is about. They've already been stripped of most of their personal impact and skill expression, there should be more reasons added to position properly in fights, not less. The entire point of trinity system is that every role has to perform in order for others to work right - you can't just remove anything that requires cooperation in a co-op game, just because "other people making mistakes is inconvenient to me". This shouldn't even be taken into consideration honestly.

[Canadane]

You wouldn't be worried about tanks spinning the boss in order to hit those positionals?

There was a time when Rage of Halone had a rear potency bonus.
While things have changed a lot since then there could be ways of implementing it. Only applicable out of tank stance, or such.

Even though I know it'll never happen, a tank can dream

[Caitsithhh]

You probably missed some episodes, here and there. Especially the part that outperforming a ranged on equal gear is far from difficult. Doing the minimal will be enough.
Or that DPS isn't the only problem in ranged's current state.

As you said, design in ultimate and savages are completely different, Ultimate DPS check isn't really hard, it's way heavier mechanic wise. Some claims that it's a joke.
And since you want to pick TEA as an example, during many mechanics, the boss is not targetable at all. Being a ranged, melee or caster has little impact in there. And during the first two phase, the least you move the better.

Comparing early savage DPS check and Ultimate DPS check, that's pepega.

EDIT: Anyway, mind if we can go back to the initial discussion about positionnals?
I'll gladly answer, but there's plenty of ranged subject to debate about it.

You do perfect alex is an actual check right? And the first two phases favors a class like bard(starting to think you may be just regurgitating guide knowledge since you know nothing of actual substance...so careful throwing pepega around when that’s just a smoothbrain move). Running double phys ranged on perfect Alex is probably on release the very hardest check in the game. Comparing current TEA is like comparing savage to echo/pre-echo. It’s a joke now that gear and food/pots have made it much easier the first 3 phases. Again, your actual knowledge is laughable
SO do be careful going that route.

The convo has shifted because removing positionals is a troll topic at best. It’s the same as greeding casts to improve dps. Take the chances to nail them and get rewarded. There a reason you think discussing removing them warrants more talk? Cuz actually sadge if so.