General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Elladie]

Let me counter your anecdotal data with my own anecdotal data.

I'm in a static which has cleared both current savage tiers. My partner healer and myself are both burned out with our roles. I've talked to a few other statics and their healers seem to be in the very same situation, often describing the "one button spam" as the worse part of the role.


Again, we cannot know if this type of healing kit makes for interesting or fun gameplay. Fun is subjective after all.

What we do know is how much of a difference there is in the number of offensive spell casts and healing spell casts by simply looking at the logs.

If SE wanted to adjust healers to have them be "pure healers" wether it is to heal more or to focus on healing, it'd say they have failed. We cast almost three times more damage spells than healing spells. Which is why healers feel so repetitive.

My point being, that is YOUR experience. It's not mine, and it doesn't match the experience of others either. Therefore any claim that the healing experience in the game is objectively bad is clearly nonsense. There are people on both sides, and I'm sure SE are constantly monitoring the situation and analysing the data to see what needs changing, if anything. If they don't change anything, it's because more people are behaving in a way that shows they don't have issues with healers as they currently stand. I don't understand the argument that the devs aren't listening or are ignoring you deliberately; no, they are doing what the data indicates is the most player retentive/proftable. Anything else would be the height of stupidity.

I get that this annoys you. I understand why. But the solution is a change to the most demanding and complex content in the game, not to the healer kit. 90% of healers don't touch that content and don't want to, and that's where SE should focus a bigger demand on healer skill. Not by adding more complex DPS skills but by increasing the opportunity for mistakes that require more intensive healing/more random damage and so on

[Deceptus]

My point being, that is YOUR experience. It's not mine, and it doesn't match the experience of others either. Therefore any claim that the healing experience in the game is objectively bad is clearly nonsense. There are people on both sides, and I'm sure SE are constantly monitoring the situation and analysing the data to see what needs changing, if anything. If they don't change anything, it's because more people are behaving in a way that shows they don't have issues with healers as they currently stand. I don't understand the argument that the devs aren't listening or are ignoring you deliberately; no, they are doing what the data indicates is the most player retentive/proftable. Anything else would be the height of stupidity.

I get that this annoys you. I understand why. But the solution is a change to the most demanding and complex content in the game, not to the healer kit. 90% of healers don't touch that content and don't want to, and that's where SE should focus a bigger demand on healer skill. Not by adding more complex DPS skills but by increasing the opportunity for mistakes that require more intensive healing/more random damage and so on

The fact that healer in need is almost constantly in effect shows SOMETHING is wrong and causing healers to not play as much as they used to.

[Morningstar1337]

I do wonder how they could manage to make healing more important, as currently all they've done is simplified DPS which... isn't bad, but without the additional healing responsibility I can understand the issue. I'm not sure how the issue could be fixed, but I'm not really wanting to have healers get pushed to do more DPS, even if they could probably diversify the DPS thing a bit.

I've mention in another thread that SE could chnage the DF instances so that the entry iLevel is also the maximum iLevel but for clarity's sake I would also add that the mob stats would be unchanged. That way people won't be overgeared but would be perpetually "undergeared" bar certain instances. It won't completely eliminate healer downtime, but it will get rid of most of it

[Seraphor]

The fact that healer in need is almost constantly in effect shows SOMETHING is wrong and causing healers to not play as much as they used to.

Healer has always been the 'role in need', at least as long as I've played since late HW. People have never liked playing healer, period. Which is almost certainly due to the perceived pressure the role brings.
Besides, I still see Tank as the role in need fairly often, so it's not 100%.

[MirronTulaxia]

I've mention in another thread that SE could chnage the DF instances so that the entry iLevel is also the maximum iLevel but for clarity's sake I would also add that the mob stats would be unchanged. That way people won't be overgeared but would be perpetually "undergeared" bar certain instances. It won't completely eliminate healer downtime, but it will get rid of most of it

I think the real question is how much of their actions should be healing actions vs DPS too. Is a 1:1 ratio (on average, alternating between DPS or healing back and forth, or heavy DPS vs heavy healing phases) what the goal should be?

[Crushnight]

Regardless of personal preference, I think AST is objectively better now than in Stormblood.
Imagine how that went down last July. It's the reason for my sig.

Ah still spouting idiotic nonsense I see

You talking Subjectively not Objectively about your personal bias towards new system to be objective you have to list the facts and only facts, you Seraphor do not.

One objective fact of the New AST card system is it causes severe controller issues when trying to optimise this has led to some players stating it causes hand cramps and even physical pain something the old card system did not do, until this is sorted the new system is objectively worse than the old, potentially physical pain is not a objectively better thing, it could have everything else going for it but so long as this issue remains it is inferior to its predecessor.

You can argue better rng, you can argue better consistency with buffs, you can argue better playstyle but it is objectively inferior because it went from a system that didn't cause players pain to a system that did.

And the devs do not acknowledge it.

I've joined in your threads on ways to try and help ast play better because that is what I want a better playing Ast and the only time I got on your case was your attitude you displayed in your words, this attitude you have shown here yet again, so speak the subjective opinion and stop putting them across as facts, they ain't.

Fact btw:
Ast's numbers are down from end of SB in savage raids

Fact:
Ast provides highest rDps and good healing for all encounters

Also fact:
Ast's ratio compared to other healers is as low as 3.0 Ast for savage raids, you know back when it couldn't perform its primary function in savage raids.

Funny, facts somehow support the new system is inferior to the old system, on the subjective level ofc since based on players playing the job which is mostly down to what they like to play rather than being what gives the biggest numbers.

Funny what looking objectively does for one's case huh.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm sure SE are constantly monitoring the situation and analysing the data to see what needs changing, if anything. If they don't change anything, it's because more people are behaving in a way that shows they don't have issues with healers as they currently stand. I don't understand the argument that the devs aren't listening or are ignoring you deliberately; no, they are doing what the data indicates is the most player retentive/proftable. Anything else would be the height of stupidity.

I'd love to know where your faith in the devs comes from.

Devs make Diadem, overall dislike. Devs ignore this and repeat it with Eureka, overall dislike. 5.0 Devs finally confirm they realize we disliked that form of content.
HoH and PotD are quite popular. Devs discontinue it.
More Hildebrand requested. Devs acknowledge this is popular, then refuse because they feel it's dragging on.
Devs introduced greed only rolls in Alliance. Huge uproar and had to be reverted.
Nin and Sam released in 5.0 with big flaws despite countless pages feedback. Later Devs confirm "oh, you were right" and rework them.
Expert crafts a massive success with a huge leaderboard turnout even for just a title. Devs do literally nothing else with this new system.
Devs simplify DoH/L and buff exp to encourage crafting and discourage macro usage. Macro usage greatly increases, DoH forum almost dead, everything on MB worthless and Ishgard nearly empty.
WoW pet battles an overwhelming success. Devs ignore that and create Verminion, an overwhelming failure.
WoW Mythic dungeons an overwhelming success. Devs ignore that, remove a dungeon and add rng fishing on a big boat.
Devs force tanks to use Vit accessories in stormblood. Crafted becomes Savage BiS. Devs confirm they had no clue what they were doing and add Str ones in ShB.
DRK in a terrible state all of Stormblood. Devs admit they got it wrong and rework it in ShB, but ignore feedback and get it wrong again.

...and here were are again with Tanks and Heals. The changes were intended to encourage more players into the role. Queue times are as long as ever, forums are full of negative feedback, yet against all evidence and past track record we're to trust the Devs have it all planned out and there's a silent majority hiding in the shadows who just love it all and the queue times will fix themselves any second now?

I mean, I like FF, it's a good game and I don't mean disrespect to the Devs who are only human. But they can get it wrong sometimes.

[Seraphor]

Ah still spouting idiotic nonsense I see

You talking Subjectively not Objectively about your personal bias towards new system to be objective you have to list the facts and only facts, you Seraphor do not.

One objective fact of the New AST card system is it causes severe controller issues when trying to optimise this has led to some players stating it causes hand cramps and even physical pain something the old card system did not do, until this is sorted the new system is objectively worse than the old, potentially physical pain is not a objectively better thing, it could have everything else going for it but so long as this issue remains it is inferior to its predecessor.

You can argue better rng, you can argue better consistency with buffs, you can argue better playstyle but it is objectively inferior because it went from a system that didn't cause players pain to a system that did.

And the devs do not acknowledge it.

I've joined in your threads on ways to try and help ast play better because that is what I want a better playing Ast and the only time I got on your case was your attitude you displayed in your words, this attitude you have shown here yet again, so speak the subjective opinion and stop putting them across as facts, they ain't.

Fact btw:
Ast's numbers are down from end of SB in savage raids

Fact:
Ast provides highest rDps and good healing for all encounters

Also fact:
Ast's ratio compared to other healers is as low as 3.0 Ast for savage raids, you know back when it couldn't perform its primary function in savage raids.

Funny, facts somehow support the new system is inferior to the old system, on the subjective level ofc since based on players playing the job which is mostly down to what they like to play rather than being what gives the biggest numbers.

Funny what looking objectively does for one's case huh.

See?

And I'm not going to bother repeating myself if this is the attitude I'm faced with.
Summary: AST old card effects cannot be balanced, period. That's objective.
The number of AST players, that's subjective. You can say "numbers are facts" but they only prove the subjective opinion of players. Objective reality isn't a democracy, don't use an argument of popularity to attempt to prove objectivity. Otherwise we'll be claiming Trump is objectively a good president...
More players may have enjoyed playing with a messier RNG system that held back healer balance and resulted in a stricter meta, but that doesn't mean it was a superior system.

Physical pain... give me a break. I play Ninja.

[ReiMakoto]

See?

And I'm not going to bother repeating myself if this is the attitude I'm faced with.
Summary: AST old card effects cannot be balanced, period. That's objective.
The number of AST players, that's subjective. You can say "numbers are facts" but they only prove the subjective opinion of players. Objective reality isn't a democracy, don't use an argument of popularity to attempt to prove objectivity. Otherwise we'll be claiming Trump is objectively a good president...

You cannot make a blanket statement like old ast cannot be balanced like that. RNG classes can always be balanced by stacking the odds, occasionally you'll get a dud but more often than not you get a good option. IIRC old ast had a 70+% (cant remember the exact number think it was likely higher) chance of using some sort of aoe damage up buff every min. That meant it was pretty much consistent outside of absolute dud hands which were rare, so you then balance the output around the averages. Occasionally you'll get a god tier run where the stars align, and that run will be better, however you also get runs where someone happens to crit way more, or got good procs, ect. Old AST could be balanced, its just player perception of what they should be doing lead to many to play it sub optimally leading to polarising results. You cannot objectively say old AST could not be balanced, because you could make it so on average it has a balanced output, and then any god tier rng runs are just a byproduct of good rng same as for any other proc or rng based class. As long as there was suitable ways to manipulate your rng and the duds could be refunded in some way an average balance can be achieved.

[Crushnight]

Again, I wanted to avoid repeating myself, but you clearly haven't read my other posts. Why is pressing 1,2,3 more engaging than pressing 1,1,1? Especially if 3 depends on you pressing 1 and then 2 and not having to interrupt to heal the melee who ignored the red marker on the ground because 'mah deeps'?

If 1,2,3 are a combo that heals can interrupt for healers yea I'd agree with you that it would be a terrible idea to do because things can change on a dime for healers especially in 24 mans, I also do not want to see "sorry can't heal you i'm mid dps combo", however if heals don't interupt or 2,3 were both dots with different durations then what harm does it do, people's playstyles wouldn't magically change for the worse.

1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,2 is more interesting than
1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 because you are actively thinking more in the former than the latter.

They have tried reduction to the dps kit the current system is the result, what harm would it do to do a bit of addition to this kit especially if you feel there is no difference for it as it means you'll handle it regardless.

Also know what also is unnecessary more healing tools, all 3 healers can handle ShB 'casual' content with their SB kits even savage can be handled with SB kits leaving Ultimate, the content 1% of the playerbase does as the only justifiable place for the new healing tools. So additional stuff to our healing kits you know the primary role is straight up bloat, yet you know they are going to add even more to it next expansion and definitely won't change content design to compliment it, I mean did Shadowbringers do that with the culling