General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Sylve]

Constant damage is a terrible idea, if only because not every healer class is designed to handle it. SCH is screwed in situations where they need to spam GCDs. They're expensive and inefficient, hence why it's better to use oGCDs unless you absolutely need to GCD heal, you'd have to completely change that class if you were to swap to such a model. Even in unoptimized runs, where I've had window lickers, I could find time to DPS. Unless the other members were literally running into orange circles on purpose and collecting vuln stacks like they were trading cards, there is plenty of time to DPS if you know your kit and you know that people don't need every booboo kissed away.

Oh really? SCH wouldn't be able to handle the party taking damage on the regular?
The job with a pet that auto heals anyone who takes damage.
The job with abundant, powerful shielding effects?
The job that also has access to Regens?

THAT job would suddenly be unplayable were the Party to take damage outside of the script?

So you mean to tell me that SCH is unplayable in groups that do frequently stand in the fire?

Once again. Make up your mind. You claim healing is soooo easy that you only need to spend oGCDs over the course of an entire run, but then a suggestion that would place a heavier burden on the party than oGCDs alone can cover would suddenly make the current Healer jobs with more Healing options than we ever apparently need too hard to play?

[Deceptus]

The job with a pet that auto heals anyone who takes damage.

For miniscule amounts as inefficiently as possible, also with delays.

The job with abundant, powerful shielding effects?

Yeah, that 180 potency succor shield is so much.

The job that also has access to Regens?

At level 80. Unless you're talking about Whispering Dawn, which suffers from the pet healing potency reduction. Fairy potency is functionally equivalent to potency*0.66. A whopping 79 potency per tick.

So you mean to tell me that SCH is unplayable in groups that do frequently stand in the fire?

While not unplayable, lower level SCH play is pretty bad when it comes to AOE damage and it has almost always been that way.

[ForteNightshade]

So what you're telling me is that in a perfectly optimized run, with members of your static with whom you play regularly and have full trust in are able to power your way through a dungeon that you are fifty item levels overgeared for with oGCDs.

How about Holminster Switch with a rando tank in 380-390 gear and I'm on Scholar—my worst healer by no small margin? Oh, and he pulled the whole room. Admittedly, I spam healed a lot more than I ever would on White Mage but I still contributed decent enough damage on a healer I don't know very well. How? I looked up how it played beforehand. Momo Sama has a fantastic guide.

Maybe people shouldn't jump onto jobs they don't know much about then get upset when it frustrates others.

Once again. Make up your mind. You claim healing is soooo easy that you only need to spend oGCDs over the course of an entire run, but then a suggestion that would place a heavier burden on the party than oGCDs alone can cover would suddenly make the current Healer jobs with more Healing options than we ever apparently need too hard to play?

You keep making Strawmen.

If you fundamentally change the encounter design, you also have to consider how it impacts each job. White Mage, for example, is an MP battery that practically can't run out. It can handle persistent AoE healing but Astro, functionally, cannot. You wouldn't make healing harder, you'd be forcing Astro players to literally do nothing but heal because they couldn't afford to waste any MP on DPS spells. This causes an imbalance as now White Mage is far and away superior since it can accomplish both mass AoE healing and dealing damage without running out of MP.

Now I'm all for more outgoing damage and greater emphasise on healing but should they go in that direction, 6.0 needs to give all three healers (hopefully four) the tools to handle it.

[althenawhm]

Every time someone mentions that they should just raise the amount of damage bosses do to make healers more interesting.
And every time I have to remind them that the devs would have to either rebalance all the fights in the game, or there would be the levels of 1 to 80 that would be completely boring and 81 to 90 would be the only good levels.

[Sylve]

How about Holminster Switch with a rando tank in 380-390 gear and I'm on Scholar—my worst healer by no small margin? Oh, and he pulled the whole room. Admittedly, I spam healed a lot more than I ever would on White Mage but I still contributed decent enough damage on a healer I don't know very well. How? I looked up how it played beforehand. Momo Sama has a fantastic guide.

Maybe people shouldn't jump onto jobs they don't know much about then get upset when it frustrates others.



You keep making Strawmen.

If you fundamentally change the encounter design, you also have to consider how it impacts each job. White Mage, for example, is an MP battery that practically can't run out. It can handle persistent AoE healing but Astro, functionally, cannot. You wouldn't make healing harder, you'd be forcing Astro players to literally do nothing but heal because they couldn't afford to waste any MP on DPS spells. This causes an imbalance as now White Mage is far and away superior since it can accomplish both mass AoE healing and dealing damage without running out of MP.

Now I'm all for more outgoing damage and greater emphasise on healing but should they go in that direction, 6.0 needs to give all three healers (hopefully four) the tools to handle it.

Holminster Switch is a minimum ilvl of 370. 380 - 390 is literally the ideal gear range for that instance. You admit that aren't very good at SCH, And I posted earlier in the thread that efficiency with Healing comes from experience and understanding. You can mimic a guide, But the only way to properly learn is by doing and reflecting.

Also, In every single one of my posts i have been supportive of guiding Healers into doing damage in downtime. I don't know where you lot are getting the idea that I'm not.

As to your final statements... Strawman? Really? I don't need to construct anything because this thread is filled with posts claiming Healing is so easy they only need oGCDs to heal entire runs.

Astro has the same quality tools as WHM and SCH for opening windows for damage. Being able to drop 500 potency worth of Regens on the Tank at a moments notice is an incredibly powerful thing.
WHM MP is only as good as it is because Lilies and oGCDs line up perfectly with practically all incoming damage.
Which is precisely the issue i wish to address by having damage be more constant. Constant enough that its a threat, Light enough that we wont be combo'd to death by a splash of damage and an immediate unavoidable mechanic.

We already have a plethora of powerful tools. We just lack situations where GCD healing is valuable. Heck, We even have traits on our cheap Heals that would and should encourage more use of them in a world where the party was constantly taking damage.

Every time someone mentions that they should just raise the amount of damage bosses do to make healers more interesting.
And every time I have to remind them that the devs would have to either rebalance all the fights in the game, or there would be the levels of 1 to 80 that would be completely boring and 81 to 90 would be the only good levels.

I have never and will never suggest that bosses simply hit harder. That is the antithesis of a good healing model.

What I'm after is frequency. Tank Busters line up perfectly with Anti Buster Cooldowns. Partywide damage lines up perfectly with free oGCD AoE healing.
Up the frequency, introduce some non script damage and suddenly we'll need to prioritize GCD Healing on occasion over damage spells.

[ForteNightshade]

Holminster Switch is a minimum ilvl of 370. 380 - 390 is literally the ideal gear range for that instance. You admit that aren't very good at SCH, And I posted earlier in the thread that efficiency with Healing comes from experience and understanding. You can mimic a guide, But the only way to properly learn is by doing and reflecting.

Also, In every single one of my posts i have been supportive of guiding Healers into doing damage in downtime. I don't know where you lot are getting the idea that I'm not.

Yes? Which means there is no excuse to contribute little to no DPS. My whole point admitting that is despite not being a good Scholar, I still weaved in damage. So why can't anyone else? This isn't Stone Vigil we're talking about but a level 71 dungeon. You have no excuse at that point to be standing around nearly DPSing.

It could be because practically every post of yours on the last two pages has been decrying how the community views healer DPS or making statements like "healers need to do the DPS' job too!"

As to your final statements... Strawman? Really? I don't need to construct anything because this thread is filled with posts claiming Healing is so easy they only need oGCDs to heal entire runs.

Astro has the same quality tools as WHM and SCH for opening windows for damage. Being able to drop 500 potency worth of Regens on the Tank at a moments notice is an incredibly powerful thing.
WHM MP is only as good as it is because Lilies and oGCDs line up perfectly with practically all incoming damage.
Which is precisely the issue i wish to address by having damage be more constant. Constant enough that its a threat, Light enough that we wont be combo'd to death by a splash of damage and an immediate unavoidable mechanic.

We already have a plethora of powerful tools. We just lack situations where GCD healing is valuable. Heck, We even have traits on our cheap Heals that would and should encourage more use of them in a world where the party was constantly taking damage.

So Astro has access to Thin Air and Earthly Star as a MP return? No? Then it does not have the same quality tools.

Honestly, you've completely missed my point. Astro does not have the MP sustain to handle constant GCD healing. They will burn out significantly faster than White Mage, thus creating an imbalance where White Mage is better. While, in theory, this would make content more threatening. You've now forced Astro into a position where they can't afford to DPS at all otherwise they'll dry up. So why even bring the job at all when White Mage won't have this problem?

Now if your idea is to simply throw out a couple more raid-wide AoEs or mini tank busters; possibly having them be random. It's something, I suppose, but really wouldn't change much.

[Klaleara]

The only thing that prevents me from dealing damage* is mana. I really wish damage didn't cost mana. Hell, if anything, I think it would be neat if they made it so damage spells actually helped mana regen.

*Edited cause I'm an idiot

[Billythepancake]

Oh really? SCH wouldn't be able to handle the party taking damage on the regular?
The job with a pet that auto heals anyone who takes damage.
The job with abundant, powerful shielding effects?
The job that also has access to Regens?

THAT job would suddenly be unplayable were the Party to take damage outside of the script?

So you mean to tell me that SCH is unplayable in groups that do frequently stand in the fire?

Once again. Make up your mind. You claim healing is soooo easy that you only need to spend oGCDs over the course of an entire run, but then a suggestion that would place a heavier burden on the party than oGCDs alone can cover would suddenly make the current Healer jobs with more Healing options than we ever apparently need too hard to play?

I claim it's easy because it's designed to be. You want to know how I know spamming heals wouldn't be sustainable for SCH? Because I've done it, on TEA, an ultimate fight. When I was first progging that fight I was giving out succors like candy. By the time we were clearing LL, about 3 minutes or so into the fight, I was ending on 400 mp, with a piety build, after I chugged a mana pot earlier in the phase, with 14 minutes left to go of the fight. That is literally unsustainable. If you want healing to be that hard in the entire game, then please, by all means. SCH has good burst, not good sustain, the only reason they function at all in the current meta is because damage is predictable and isn't constant.

That's not to say I mind healing more, hell, TEA has been the only piece of content I've genuinely enjoyed this expansion, and it's also the only fight where I can say I don't mind having a smaller DPS kit because I'm so focused on everything else. (to clarify, that's not to say I prefer the smaller kit in there,I would still choose to have it if I could, just that I'm not as bothered by it's reduction) however I cannot expect the entire game to be on ultimate levels of healing, that's absurd.

[Lersayil]

The only thing that prevents me from healing is mana. I really wish damage didn't cost mana. Hell, if anything, I think it would be neat if they made it so damage spells actually helped mana regen.

This suggestion came up a number of times in different forms during the years (dps being beneficial to healing in some way). I think I remember the devs addressing it once, stating that that would basically cement the idea that healers should be doing damage beside healing, which would mess with the role fantasy? Paraphrasing a lot since my memory is failing. I'll try google diving a bit.

Anyways, I wonder if that stance changed at all since then.

[GrimGale]

Well, even if we disagree as to how to fix the situation, this thread makes one thing clear: The current situation and iteration of healer design is terrible and must needs be adjusted.