General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Morningstar1337]

I do wonder how they could manage to make healing more important, as currently all they've done is simplified DPS which... isn't bad, but without the additional healing responsibility I can understand the issue. I'm not sure how the issue could be fixed, but I'm not really wanting to have healers get pushed to do more DPS, even if they could probably diversify the DPS thing a bit.

I've mention in another thread that SE could chnage the DF instances so that the entry iLevel is also the maximum iLevel but for clarity's sake I would also add that the mob stats would be unchanged. That way people won't be overgeared but would be perpetually "undergeared" bar certain instances. It won't completely eliminate healer downtime, but it will get rid of most of it

[MirronTulaxia]

I've mention in another thread that SE could chnage the DF instances so that the entry iLevel is also the maximum iLevel but for clarity's sake I would also add that the mob stats would be unchanged. That way people won't be overgeared but would be perpetually "undergeared" bar certain instances. It won't completely eliminate healer downtime, but it will get rid of most of it

I think the real question is how much of their actions should be healing actions vs DPS too. Is a 1:1 ratio (on average, alternating between DPS or healing back and forth, or heavy DPS vs heavy healing phases) what the goal should be?

[Crushnight]

Regardless of personal preference, I think AST is objectively better now than in Stormblood.
Imagine how that went down last July. It's the reason for my sig.

Ah still spouting idiotic nonsense I see

You talking Subjectively not Objectively about your personal bias towards new system to be objective you have to list the facts and only facts, you Seraphor do not.

One objective fact of the New AST card system is it causes severe controller issues when trying to optimise this has led to some players stating it causes hand cramps and even physical pain something the old card system did not do, until this is sorted the new system is objectively worse than the old, potentially physical pain is not a objectively better thing, it could have everything else going for it but so long as this issue remains it is inferior to its predecessor.

You can argue better rng, you can argue better consistency with buffs, you can argue better playstyle but it is objectively inferior because it went from a system that didn't cause players pain to a system that did.

And the devs do not acknowledge it.

I've joined in your threads on ways to try and help ast play better because that is what I want a better playing Ast and the only time I got on your case was your attitude you displayed in your words, this attitude you have shown here yet again, so speak the subjective opinion and stop putting them across as facts, they ain't.

Fact btw:
Ast's numbers are down from end of SB in savage raids

Fact:
Ast provides highest rDps and good healing for all encounters

Also fact:
Ast's ratio compared to other healers is as low as 3.0 Ast for savage raids, you know back when it couldn't perform its primary function in savage raids.

Funny, facts somehow support the new system is inferior to the old system, on the subjective level ofc since based on players playing the job which is mostly down to what they like to play rather than being what gives the biggest numbers.

Funny what looking objectively does for one's case huh.

[Seraphor]

Ah still spouting idiotic nonsense I see

You talking Subjectively not Objectively about your personal bias towards new system to be objective you have to list the facts and only facts, you Seraphor do not.

One objective fact of the New AST card system is it causes severe controller issues when trying to optimise this has led to some players stating it causes hand cramps and even physical pain something the old card system did not do, until this is sorted the new system is objectively worse than the old, potentially physical pain is not a objectively better thing, it could have everything else going for it but so long as this issue remains it is inferior to its predecessor.

You can argue better rng, you can argue better consistency with buffs, you can argue better playstyle but it is objectively inferior because it went from a system that didn't cause players pain to a system that did.

And the devs do not acknowledge it.

I've joined in your threads on ways to try and help ast play better because that is what I want a better playing Ast and the only time I got on your case was your attitude you displayed in your words, this attitude you have shown here yet again, so speak the subjective opinion and stop putting them across as facts, they ain't.

Fact btw:
Ast's numbers are down from end of SB in savage raids

Fact:
Ast provides highest rDps and good healing for all encounters

Also fact:
Ast's ratio compared to other healers is as low as 3.0 Ast for savage raids, you know back when it couldn't perform its primary function in savage raids.

Funny, facts somehow support the new system is inferior to the old system, on the subjective level ofc since based on players playing the job which is mostly down to what they like to play rather than being what gives the biggest numbers.

Funny what looking objectively does for one's case huh.

See?

And I'm not going to bother repeating myself if this is the attitude I'm faced with.
Summary: AST old card effects cannot be balanced, period. That's objective.
The number of AST players, that's subjective. You can say "numbers are facts" but they only prove the subjective opinion of players. Objective reality isn't a democracy, don't use an argument of popularity to attempt to prove objectivity. Otherwise we'll be claiming Trump is objectively a good president...
More players may have enjoyed playing with a messier RNG system that held back healer balance and resulted in a stricter meta, but that doesn't mean it was a superior system.

Physical pain... give me a break. I play Ninja.

[ReiMakoto]

See?

And I'm not going to bother repeating myself if this is the attitude I'm faced with.
Summary: AST old card effects cannot be balanced, period. That's objective.
The number of AST players, that's subjective. You can say "numbers are facts" but they only prove the subjective opinion of players. Objective reality isn't a democracy, don't use an argument of popularity to attempt to prove objectivity. Otherwise we'll be claiming Trump is objectively a good president...

You cannot make a blanket statement like old ast cannot be balanced like that. RNG classes can always be balanced by stacking the odds, occasionally you'll get a dud but more often than not you get a good option. IIRC old ast had a 70+% (cant remember the exact number think it was likely higher) chance of using some sort of aoe damage up buff every min. That meant it was pretty much consistent outside of absolute dud hands which were rare, so you then balance the output around the averages. Occasionally you'll get a god tier run where the stars align, and that run will be better, however you also get runs where someone happens to crit way more, or got good procs, ect. Old AST could be balanced, its just player perception of what they should be doing lead to many to play it sub optimally leading to polarising results. You cannot objectively say old AST could not be balanced, because you could make it so on average it has a balanced output, and then any god tier rng runs are just a byproduct of good rng same as for any other proc or rng based class. As long as there was suitable ways to manipulate your rng and the duds could be refunded in some way an average balance can be achieved.

[Seraphor]

You cannot make a blanket statement like old ast cannot be balanced like that.

FFS... I guess I am repeating myself then.


Bole - A 10% damage reduction ability that you only have access to 1/6th of the time. This means that the healer kits can't be balanced around having this type of single target damage reduction ability. It is either considered essential, which puts AST at a disadvantage 5/6th of the time, or it is considered useless.

Ewer - Crucial MP regeneration, that impacts the balance of MP maintenance. With it (again only 1/6th uptime and totally RNG) AST has too much MP, without it, not enough.

Arrow - Speed increase. Some jobs NEED this, some jobs have their rotation thrown off by it making it actually detrimental. Most jobs however simply do not feel the benefit of it at all. On paper you can math it out and say that it should be a ~12% DPS increase or whatever, but in practice, players clip their GCD's, and unless it results in getting a whole additional GCD in the 30s window that it has an effect on (which it doesn't) then it's useless.

Spear - Crit buff. Crit scales logarithmicly, making less effective at the start of an expac and more effective at the end, making it disproportionately effective for some classes than other, and completely screwed with Bards job mechanics pre-Shadowbringers to the point where it was proccing way more Bloodletters, etc. than the devs ever intended.

Spire - doesn't need mentioning.

Balance - ironically the only balanced card in the set.

The whole picture, has AST players either constantly fishing for expanded Balances (so the whole RNG thing is a waste of time) or having their core healer kit (Bole and Ewer) at the mercy of RNG (objectively detrimental to them as a Healer)


But no, I'm sure you enjoyed having such a janky RNG system to fight against. I'm sure it was a blast!
I'm sure Tanks would enjoy it if their cooldowns randomly disappeared form their hotbars as well, or perhaps Monk's had their stances randomly change instead of being on a rotation.
Or you know what, maybe Black Mages spells could either cast random fire or ice spells. Will it be Blizzard and regen MP, or will it be Fire and switch from UI to AF when you don't want to? Who knows!

[ReiMakoto]

FFS... I guess I am repeating myself then.


Bole - A 10% damage reduction ability that you only have access to 1/6th of the time. This means that the healer kits can't be balanced around having this type of single target damage reduction ability. It is either considered essential, which puts AST at a disadvantage 5/6th of the time, or it is considered useless.

Ewer - Crucial MP regeneration, that impacts the balance of MP maintenance. With it (again only 1/6th uptime and totally RNG) AST has too much MP, without it, not enough.

Arrow - Speed increase. Some jobs NEED this, some jobs have their rotation thrown off by it making it actually detrimental. Most jobs however simply do not feel the benefit of it at all. On paper you can math it out and say that it should be a ~12% DPS increase or whatever, but in practice, players clip their GCD's, and unless it results in getting a whole additional GCD in the 30s window that it has an effect on (which it doesn't) then it's useless.

Spear - Crit buff. Crit scales logarithmicly, making less effective at the start of an expac and more effective at the end, making it disproportionately effective for some classes than other, and completely screwed with Bards job mechanics pre-Shadowbringers to the point where it was proccing way more Bloodletters, etc. than the devs ever intended.

Spire - doesn't need mentioning.

Balance - ironically the only balanced card in the set.

The whole picture, has AST players either constantly fishing for expanded Balances (so the whole RNG thing is a waste of time) or having their core healer kit (Bole and Ewer) at the mercy of RNG (objectively detrimental to them as a Healer)

ASTs kit was set up in such a way that you didn't need bole for mitigation in raid content, they had enough baked in mitigation, same with ewer it wasn't necessary if you were good.

Spear, Balance and arrow were all dps gains. The only job arrow majorly threw off was mch and that could be adjusted around if you noticed you had the buff, and this adds to what i was talking about earlier about balancing around the averages.
You weren't only fishing for expanded balance in normal play, you were fishing for expanded (damage buff) be that spear, balance or arrow which you had a very high chance of getting, sure balance was better but not all that much better than crit, and if arrow had been adjusted that could have been another desirable counterpart. Bole and Ewer and Spire weren't their core healer kit, using them for their play effects were an added bonus if you got them, not core to their kit, they were designed for burning and rng manipulation. The only way a good rng class works is by having a less desirable option that can turn up, and if the player adjusts around it they still get a gain out of it, just not a large one. Balance was was massively overhyped in SB as fflogs ranked off of DPS not RDPS, going for the damage buff every min approach would be a pretty desirable effect this expac. I aggree arrow was a tad weak, but they could have turned it into a dhit buff.

You're placing way too much emphasis on some parts of the kit and being overly reductive about others. Basically every card was useful before just to differing degrees, spire/ewer were royal road fodder, balance spear and arrow were damage buffs and bole could be adjusted around if you got it, but really was the most useless out of the pack.

[Seraphor]

ASTs kit was set up in such a way that you didn't need bole for mitigation in raid content, they had enough baked in mitigation, same with ewer it wasn't necessary if you were good.

SO they were all useless. Right. So you're not sad to see them go then.

Spear, Balance and arrow were all dps gains. The only job arrow majorly threw off was mch and that could be adjusted around if you noticed you had the buff, and this adds to what i was talking about earlier about balancing around the averages.

And Ninja, and in high level content, pretty much everyone with buff windows.
Expanded Arrow was a big no-no, but everyone still used it under the delusion that it was a DPS increase.

Bole and Ewer and Spire weren't their core healer kit, using them for their play effects were an added bonus if you got them, not core to their kit, they were designed for burning and rng manipulation.

That's what I'm saying. From a balancing perspective, they either become essential and puts AST at a huge healing disadvantage, OR (as was the case most of the time) they were useless, which means they were a bonus when you did get them, putting AST at an unfair advantage in some very select situations.
But because this is weighed against their DPS output, this actually put them at a disadvantage in the meta.
AST was only ever selected in high end content for their raid buffs, specifically Expanded-Balance, and if the rng didn't smile on them, they single handedly tanked the entire raid.
The rest of the party do not give a single shit what your other cards did, they only needed you for the Balance. Except Bards, the Crit junkies.

[Ceasaria]

The whole picture, has AST players either constantly fishing for expanded Balances (so the whole RNG thing is a waste of time) or having their core healer kit (Bole and Ewer) at the mercy of RNG (objectively detrimental to them as a Healer)

Balance - ironically the only balanced card in the set.

Your character is suffering from blindness, I guess.

But no, I'm sure you enjoyed having such a janky RNG system to fight against. I'm sure it was a blast!

Still a shame to see a lack of understanding of the previous AST version.
But now you have your new version and enjoying it, why are you rainding with GNB ?

[Crushnight]

Again, I wanted to avoid repeating myself, but you clearly haven't read my other posts. Why is pressing 1,2,3 more engaging than pressing 1,1,1? Especially if 3 depends on you pressing 1 and then 2 and not having to interrupt to heal the melee who ignored the red marker on the ground because 'mah deeps'?

If 1,2,3 are a combo that heals can interrupt for healers yea I'd agree with you that it would be a terrible idea to do because things can change on a dime for healers especially in 24 mans, I also do not want to see "sorry can't heal you i'm mid dps combo", however if heals don't interupt or 2,3 were both dots with different durations then what harm does it do, people's playstyles wouldn't magically change for the worse.

1,2,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,1,1,2,1,1,3,1,1,1,1,1,3,2 is more interesting than
1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2 because you are actively thinking more in the former than the latter.

They have tried reduction to the dps kit the current system is the result, what harm would it do to do a bit of addition to this kit especially if you feel there is no difference for it as it means you'll handle it regardless.

Also know what also is unnecessary more healing tools, all 3 healers can handle ShB 'casual' content with their SB kits even savage can be handled with SB kits leaving Ultimate, the content 1% of the playerbase does as the only justifiable place for the new healing tools. So additional stuff to our healing kits you know the primary role is straight up bloat, yet you know they are going to add even more to it next expansion and definitely won't change content design to compliment it, I mean did Shadowbringers do that with the culling