Can we please get aggro management back?

[Fynlar]

You are still saying we should not add threat management because of bad players. That seems silly.

Well, there's also the fact I don't feel it adds that much to the game anyway, now that you bring that up.

But even besides that, are you going to say what makes the argument silly, or are we just supposed to take your word for it? A lot of people ARE bad players, and "DPS" tanks (very commonplace, because of the prevailing attitude of "everyone do as much damage as humanly possible, gotta go fast") are just one of those things that made threat management awful for everyone else to have to deal with.

Tanks didn't need to get Shirk as an ability last expansion; they were practically already managing it without needing an ability specifically named for it.

[TyrTry]

i personally prefer the current system over the one where the responsivility of tank managing agro is shoved to the other roles because mah dps!

I mean...that is the job of a dps though; to pump out as much dps as possible. I had more issues with "mah dps" from tanks back in Heavensward when STR accessories were a thing and tanks who absolutely REFUSED to turn on Tanks Stance, because DPS Stance was so much better....until we all died.

There was enmity reducers back then, yes, but if the tank actively refused to use the tools provided themselves, then I don't blame the other players for not using their's as well.

[Awha]

You people really like staring at lists, don't you? If that's fun for you then play a healer, but the LAST thing I want added to tanking is having constantly pull my attention away from the action to stare at that boring enmity list.

I wouldn't mind having a more difficult DPS rotation, or having my mitigation CDs be more life or death if I don't use them correctly, but why do MMO communities always default to the absolute most boring possible solutions to making things more "engaging?"

As a tank I have never had to stare at the enmity list. Though granted I am sure you were just exaggerating. I would also like for more complex rotations, and more active mitigation. Though I would also like my enmity management to also matter.

Well, there's also the fact I don't feel it adds that much to the game anyway, now that you bring that up.

But even besides that, are you going to say what makes the argument silly, or are we just supposed to take your word for it? A lot of people ARE bad players, and "DPS" tanks (very commonplace, because of the prevailing attitude of "everyone do as much damage as humanly possible, gotta go fast") are just one of those things that made threat management awful for everyone else to have to deal with.

Tanks didn't need to get Shirk as an ability last expansion; they were practically already managing it without needing an ability specifically for it.

I mean if you do not enjoy threat management who am I to say why you should, but in my opinion not adding x because of bad players seems awfully silly. Bottom top balance has never been my cup of tea.

At the end of the day it is clear you have your bias as do I. Nothing I or anyone else can say will sway your view because you have already shown you have a negative stimga towards dps tanks, and the meta surrounding it.

That is the thing about game systems for one person it might be a drag for another it could be a blast. I enjoyed DA spam, I enjoyed old cleric stance, hell I loved all stages of eureka. People have different tastes and that is fine, but I do find it odd that people can be against something because of others so to speak. Players will be bad, I do think we should balance the game around bad players. Run into a bad player give them the boot and move on, do not waste your time with them.

[Goji1639]

Personally, I don't think I ever had to stare at the enmity list during my time as tanking even back when Warriors could use Flash as an enmity increaser. Typically, when I see an enemy chomping on the healer's face, it was a good clue that I didn't have that enemy's attention. But I like the idea of a more complex DPS rotation (not difficult, but something that requires basic comprehension skills. Not just 1-2-3 with a special 4 thrown in when ready); with kind of a "consequence" for not doing the combo correctly like reduced enmity. Just an idea with too many variables however.

Honestly--and this going against popular opinion--I really don't mind aggro as it is now. As mentioned before, when Warriors could use Flash, aggro management was a nightmare for me, especially in lower dungeons; always fighting against the high-geared player who could just fart in the general direction of the enemy to immediately tick it off.

Even as simple as aggro management is now, I still find myself with tanks who struggle with maintaining aggro for a variety of reasons; making it more complex or bringing back stances would most likely have a more negative effect than a positive one for your daily tank (just imo however).

I wasn't really around when aggro management was more of a thing in this game, but when I played WoW way back it was just tedious. I suppose if you run with good groups that keep thing predictable you didn't have to focus on an aggro list, but in pugs and randoms people will randomly not use their aggro dumps, pop all CDs and unload at bad times, etc. so you're just going back and forth looking at the list making sure you're at the top.

It's the same way healing works here. In a good group it's whatever; in randoms people are getting hit by avoidable mechanics, cleaves, etc. constantly, so you're always half looking at the list half at the fight. That's not really avoidable with healing, which is one reason I imagine healing is so unpopular. There's NO REASON to turn tanking into that with aggro management, though. If I end up staring at a list, just so I can press a button to change stances if the little symbols change color then screw it, I'll play DPS. That's not fun or engaging, I don't know why anyone here would want that.

[Morningstar1337]

Kinda a tangent, but Come to think of it. I noticed that in Stromblood and beyond all accs are locked to their proper class. I wonder if the use of STR accs was the cause?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Kinda a tangent, but Come to think of it. I noticed that in Stromblood and beyond all accs are locked to their proper class. I wonder if the use of STR accs was the cause?

It definitely was. They specifically said so.

[wereotter]

Stormblood proved that tanks had little interest in using the emnity tools they had and preferred to push that responsibility off to everyone else in the team. Stormblood also proved that DPS and healers didn't want to use those tools, justifying it with the argument that agro management is the primary responsibility of the tank.

So if you're the game developer, you had two choices. Continue to double down on the system that has caused a lot of community bickering for four-six years, and to a degree scared people off from playing a tanking job entirely (because no one will let you sit in tank stance while you're still learning when it's safe to turn it off) or just abandon the mechanic, eliminate agro management, and let tanks do full damage all the time.

If only from the perspective that there's at least a little less bickering between players, the current system is superior.

[Shurrikhan]

Back when aggro management was "Turn on tank stance, use your aggro combo once, turn off tank stance and use dps rotation only for the rest of the fight." When everyone is told to play like that, its no wonder things ended up as they did. Players complain about problems that they themselves created.

XIV having done the concept no justice before doesn't mean the concept itself is irredeemably flawed. It just means XIV once again browned the bed.

[ForteNightshade]

I mean...that is the job of a dps though; to pump out as much dps as possible. I had more issues with "mah dps" from tanks back in Heavensward when STR accessories were a thing and tanks who absolutely REFUSED to turn on Tanks Stance, because DPS Stance was so much better....until we all died.

There was enmity reducers back then, yes, but if the tank actively refused to use the tools provided themselves, then I don't blame the other players for not using their's as well.

That's a poor argument. Those aggro tools on DPS cost them nothing whereas Tank Stance was a massively DPS loss. In fact, Tank Stance was so bad, it was a raid DPS loss to turn it on instead of having Monk use Purification; keeping in mind Purification was linked to Forbidden Charka. So in other words, Monk giving up a 300+ potency attack (whatever it was back then) was less of a loss than forcing a Dark Knight to turn on Grit and do a Power Slash combo.

Of course tanks did far more damage back than relative to the DPS. So while that would no longer be the case in Shadowbringers, it still speaks volumes on how poorly thought out Tank Stance was and why tanks never wanted to use it.

[TyrTry]

That's a poor argument. Those aggro tools on DPS cost them nothing whereas Tank Stance was a massively DPS loss. In fact, Tank Stance was so bad, it was a raid DPS loss to turn it on instead of having Monk use Purification; keeping in mind Purification was linked to Forbidden Charka. So in other words, Monk giving up a 300+ potency attack (whatever it was back then) was less of a loss than forcing a Dark Knight to turn on Grit and do a Power Slash combo.

Of course tanks did far more damage back than relative to the DPS. So while that would no longer be the case in Shadowbringers, it still speaks volumes on how poorly thought out Tank Stance was and why tanks never wanted to use it.

Perhaps. But it was never my attempt to argue.

I spent too much time in past arguing over the differences between tank stance vs dps stance that I eventually got tired of it. I'm aware of the dps loss and all that info (I use to stance dance all the time and gotten into plenty heated debates over it). I've been chewed out repeatedly for tanking in dps stance or for tanking too much in tank stance.

It was just in my experience that the "mah dps" mentality mostly came from the tanks I would que up with expecting others to accommodate for them when aggro exploded. It wasn't often, but it was notable.