General Community Resistant to Healer Damage?

[Mansion]

not shoving the "MUST DO MAX DEEPS OR BOOT" mentality down their throats.

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? We are not asking 99 parse or nothing. Nobody ever asked that actually. There's an in between.

The deadweight idea, I was more thinking about 8man normal raids or 24man raids, when I heal there. Usually, I end up healing as much (or more) than a bad co healer who doesn't use half of their kit, over heal, put shields that time out rather than get absorbed, compared to someone that just times right their healing resources, prioritizing oGCDs which are free and more powerful (and let you DPS...)

A WHM in a dungeon can pretty much heal with oGCD and Lilies, an AST could too. Not sure for SCH as I don't heal a lot with it, but I would not be surprised if it was the case.

[Sylve]

To be fair to both sides... it would be more correct to say that they are being a deadweight 60% of the instance (if we estimate a 40% healing uptime, and I'm being generous if we assume lvl80).

Might not qualify for the label of "deadweight", but if a DPS or tank only did stuff 40% of the time in a duty, I would most certainly call them bad at their job.

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

In full DF runs where its every man for himself with wild swings in individual skill, I can look at data across an entire non EX trial fight that puts the Healers outgoing damage making up only 25% of their total actions taken. And thats a Healer who was matching the Tank on damage.

You didn't read what I wrote, did you? We are not asking 99 parse or nothing. Nobody ever asked that actually. There's an in between.

The deadweight idea, I was more thinking about 8man normal raids or 24man raids, when I heal there. Usually, I end up healing as much (or more) than a bad co healer who doesn't use half of their kit, over heal, put shields that time out rather than get absorbed, compared to someone that just times right their healing resources, prioritizing oGCDs which are free and more powerful (and let you DPS...)

A WHM in a dungeon can pretty much heal with oGCD and Lilies, an AST could too. Not sure for SCH as I don't heal a lot with it, but I would not be surprised if it was the case.

And good job cutting off the most relevant part of the line you quoted.

That middle ground is precisely what I said the Healing community should be aiming to teach newcomers. But its not. Instead, we have people like you calling Healers dead weight for not doing DPS and threads all over the Healing forum complaining endlessly about Healers who dont, or minimally DPS.

For your line about 8/24s, You heal like that because of your experience and understanding that comes with it of those fights. You've memorized the dance and mapped out your responses.
Then you tell a newcomer or someone who is far less experienced with that content that they should be healing with oGCDs almost exclusively right off the bat?
No. You should be telling them to learn the fight and understand the most effective responses to each mechanic.
THEN you nudge them in the direction of spending the freed resources on damage.

For cryin' out loud, teach them to walk before you demand they run.

Also, as someone who plays all 3 Healers as 'mains' in 80 content, we vastly outgear Dungeons because the ilvl syncing is obscenely high compared to the minimum. Thats why they're so damned easy to heal. That and the clockwork nature of boss mechanics (That i've railed against for a long time).

[Mansion]

And good job cutting off the most relevant part of the line you quoted.

That middle ground is precisely what I said the Healing community should be aiming to teach newcomers. But its not. Instead, we have people like you calling Healers dead weight for not doing DPS and threads all over the Healing forum complaining endlessly about Healers who dont, or minimally DPS.

Well, fair game as you just did it before, because we essentially agree and I don't get the virulence. Yes I am experienced, but no I won't hold anything against a new player because... they are new and I'm not a dick. It happened to me yesterday in the Malikah dungeon actually, and everything went well.

Regardless, I'm not talking about newcomers (and most forum rants either) or inexperienced healers, we are talking about healers "main" who have played and healed on FFXIV for a long time and STILL won't DPS because they don't WANT to, but argue that their position is receivable.

A new player that does not know the fight and / or the job: fine. They'll learn.
A rusty healer that knows basics but need some warm up : fine. They'll find their feet.
An experienced casual player approaching new content with caution : fine. They'll learn the fight.
A player joining Extreme or Savage PFs not doing any DPS : not fine.
An experienced player doing nothing useful during weekly stuff (raids and roulettes) : not fine in theory, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Do you get the distinction I'm trying to make? No one is expecting going from sprout to 99 DPS parse.

[Lersayil]

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

In full DF runs where its every man for himself with wild swings in individual skill, I can look at data across an entire non EX trial fight that puts the Healers outgoing damage making up only 25% of their total actions taken. And thats a Healer who was matching the Tank on damage.

I was actually thinking of casual DF. PF pugs can be hit or miss. And even then, I think 40% is still an overstatement given the massive amount of oGDCs we have (unless the group is an absolute disaster, in which case you have bigger issues than healer dps).

But to reiterate, I think its fair to expect someone to utilize at least ~75% of their GCD time usefully in any level of play. If that time is filled with useful healing then fine. But otherwise I expect them to sit on that dps button.

[Sylve]

I was actually thinking of casual DF. PF pugs can be hit or miss. And even then, I think 40% is still an overstatement given the massive amount of oGDCs we have (unless the group is an absolute disaster, in which case you have bigger issues than healer dps).

But to reiterate, I think its fair to expect someone to utilize at least ~75% of their GCD time usefully in any level of play. If that time is filled with useful healing then fine. But otherwise I expect them to sit on that dps button.

Of course. I've never disagreed with wanting Healers to be more active. I take issue with elements of the community (Which is a depressingly large element -_-) who unfairly attack Healers for not doing what they think a healer should be doing.

But you said it yourself, DF and PF is hit or miss. Sometimes you win and get that perfect group who nails every mechanic and sometimes you get that group that needs to be Raised 29 times (I counted, Never change E4 Titan).
Ours is the only Role whose primary activity is predicated on how good the Party is as a whole. Which is why i push for more unavoidable damage that isnt on a clock.
Tanks gonna Tank and DPS gonna kill. Doesn't matter how the rest of the party performs for them, what they need to do doesn't change. Not so for Healers. Every run is a difference experience sometimes, lol.

[Elladie]

I am an ABC healer. I always have been, even when CS was a thing and I was learning SCH and stance dancing made me nervous. If I'm not healing, I sneak in some DPS.

But this is what I don't get about everyone complaining about healers who stand around doing nothing. The only runs I have where I spend the majority of my time DPS-ing as a healer are runs I do with my Trusts. If I'm in a dungeon with people, the tank pulls loads, the DPS take damage, I count myself lucky if I manage to throw in any DoTs. I mean I Holy as much as I can, but that's only effective for mitigating damage the first few casts; after that everything gets a bit hair-raising. I really don't get all that much opportunity to use Art of War on SCH. Yeah on bosses I can DPS more, but I don't spend anything like 60% of my time with nothing to do (if I don't DPS). Even more so on AST.

So my question is, where are all these amazing dungeon runners that only need a minimum of healing and why are they never in my parties?

[SamRF]

I am an ABC healer. I always have been, even when CS was a thing and I was learning SCH and stance dancing made me nervous. If I'm not healing, I sneak in some DPS.

But this is what I don't get about everyone complaining about healers who stand around doing nothing. The only runs I have where I spend the majority of my time DPS-ing as a healer are runs I do with my Trusts. If I'm in a dungeon with people, the tank pulls loads, the DPS take damage, I count myself lucky if I manage to throw in any DoTs. I mean I Holy as much as I can, but that's only effective for mitigating damage the first few casts; after that everything gets a bit hair-raising. I really don't get all that much opportunity to use Art of War on SCH. Yeah on bosses I can DPS more, but I don't spend anything like 60% of my time with nothing to do (if I don't DPS). Even more so on AST.

So my question is, where are all these amazing dungeon runners that only need a minimum of healing and why are they never in my parties?

I get them all the time in DF groups (probably not the majority though). SCH especially probably has easiest time not casting a single GCD heal even for big pulls considering how many tools they have availible.

However, at least in Duty Finder, I'm fine with healers who at least don't waste their GCD with overhealing or doing nothing since it means they are putting in some effort and aren't watching TV on the side. I wouldn't mind having you in my party in DF by a long shot.

[GrimGale]

So my question is, where are all these amazing dungeon runners that only need a minimum of healing and why are they never in my parties?

You can go to FF Logs and get a huge sample of healer performances (more than 5k) both in endgame dungeons and savages. Even the average ones have 150+ casts of dps skills and around 50+ uses of healing skills (Which most are OGCDs).

[Awha]

I am an ABC healer. I always have been, even when CS was a thing and I was learning SCH and stance dancing made me nervous. If I'm not healing, I sneak in some DPS.

But this is what I don't get about everyone complaining about healers who stand around doing nothing. The only runs I have where I spend the majority of my time DPS-ing as a healer are runs I do with my Trusts. If I'm in a dungeon with people, the tank pulls loads, the DPS take damage, I count myself lucky if I manage to throw in any DoTs. I mean I Holy as much as I can, but that's only effective for mitigating damage the first few casts; after that everything gets a bit hair-raising. I really don't get all that much opportunity to use Art of War on SCH. Yeah on bosses I can DPS more, but I don't spend anything like 60% of my time with nothing to do (if I don't DPS). Even more so on AST.

So my question is, where are all these amazing dungeon runners that only need a minimum of healing and why are they never in my parties?

It comes down to pushing your own limits and making mistakes along the way. What I did when I started healing was I worked on letting people get as low as I possible could before using a heal. Many people died in the process but it is a learning curve sure I got a lot of shit for it at the start but I ignored them and kept going against my basic instinct to keep people topped off or even start healing when someone drops below 50%. I learned when I needed to heal and when I didn't based off the situation and even group. Now even with a horrible tank I can still spend a large percentage of my time doing damage. Unless I run into a horrible tank with horrible gear, doing large pulls and standing in everything. I personally am not good enough to heal through that while still being able to do damage but I have seen healers that can, and it is amazing to watch.

[EaMett]

40%? Maybe in a properly coordinated run where people only take the absolute minimum necessary damage.

I think you're overestimating the value of a healer and underestimating optimized settings. As a reminder, dungeon speed runs have often been done without a healer at all.
I don't even do optimized runs but when I go in with players from my static all the healing I need to do in ex roulette is basically an excog on tank for trash and a whispering dawn on the bosses.
Likewise when I run expert roulette by myself in the duty finder I still don't use a single gcd in combat. It takes a really under-geared tank not using any CDs pulling wall to wall to get me to cast an actual heal. Everything else is ogcd. Of course everyone's mileage will vary, based on skill, comfort, gear, etc... But the idea that spending 40% of your time healing in dungeons is a normal average is just incorrect. You would have to be topping everyone up always to hit those numbers and at that point you should really focus on sharpening your skills. hence all the "healers should dps" threads.

To get an idea of how much time is spent healing in content in semi-optimized to optimized settings you're looking at about 20-10% healing in savage, 30-20% in ultimate. That's a lot of time doing nothing.

Normal duty finder raids(8-24)/trials when content is new and mentor roulette duty finder extreme trials are pretty much the only places where healing becomes a significant part of your gameplay. But those are very limited situations.

I've played MMO's where random damage spikes were a thing and let me tell you, it's not fun. Never knowing when someone is going to be hit super hard based on RNG is stressful as hell. Predictability is important for both healers and tanks.

Yeah, people have different takes on it. The gameplay becomes less about timing heals and more about spamming heals and managing your mana cleverly. I found that once you make that abstraction and forget about the actual healing to focus on the actual mana management it became pretty fun. But alas, I'm sure it's not for everyone, just as dpsing as healer is clearly not for everyone.